Decisions, decisions..... ERL 441 with some boost??

[Fiftydriver]

I have been thinking about my next power upgrade for over a year now and just can not seem to come to a conclusion here. First off, let me say that I am currently in the 550 RWHP range with a Maggie powered L99.

I ordered the LS3 conversion kit and LPE dual fuel pump kit and have that ready to go but I keep having a hard time committing that much cash so that in the end, all the added power will still be sitting on a stock L99 short block.

I know, its been done many times with great results but my goal is to do this once.

Have always liked the idea of the LSX454 and have heard a couple guys on here putting maggies on them and running light boost levels (5-6 lbs) and getting 800 HP class performance with good results. Still, writing that check for +$10K for just the long block seems pretty spendy, plus the added weight is never a good thing.

My car is a 100% street ride, no track time, no strip time, just want a bad street ride that has as near stock driving manners as possible with good reliability. I do not drive my car overly hard, it lives in the idle to 5000 rpm range about 95% of the time I drive it so the Maggie is perfect for what I want.

I recently checked out the ERL web site and in their Dry Sleeve short block section they list their M6 package which is a 441 labeled for use with boost. Am I reading the info right that this short block runs $6100 and then you get a core deposit back when you send yours in? I would likely just sell my L99 complete to recover some of the cost.

The main thing I like about this is that its built for boost and it has a 10.0-1 compression so that with mild boost levels (looking for 6 lbs is about it to start with), the Maggie should not have a problem keeping up with this and I should also be able to run relatively affordable fuels. The punch off idle should be insane for a street car.

Any thoughts on this, would this be a better option then the LSX454 for running light boost loads. Seems to me with the performance goals I would be looking to reach, 700-750 RWHP range, this combo should be PLENTY stout and should work pretty well with the Maggie as well.

I know a smaller displacement engine would be better for the Maggie but again, not looking to run the engine to its red line and looking as much for street performance and great manners then anything else. Love the torque of the big cubes and the 10-1 comp should make it very lively off idle and then once boost kicks in....!!!!

Any thoughts welcome, any problems with a plan like this. Would just get a set of CNC LS3 heads, upgrade to ID850 injectors for the Maggie and then would have to decide on a good street performance cam for the combo.

Thanks for your time...

Fiftydriver

[Unreal]

$6100 with a core, add the $1500 or whatever they charge for now core.

Don't do LSX454. They just aren't that good and not good for boost. Lots of budget parts in them compared to what you can build/buy for the same price.

Checked it is $1300 for ls2 core if you aren't send one in, and that is just their dry sleeve blocks. If you are doing ERL I would really suggest paying the extra and doing the superdeck.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Unreal

$6100 with a core, add the $1500 or whatever they charge for now core.

Don't do LSX454. They just aren't that good and not good for boost. Lots of budget parts in them compared to what you can build/buy for the same price.

Checked it is $1300 for ls2 core if you aren't send one in, and that is just their dry sleeve blocks. If you are doing ERL I would really suggest paying the extra and doing the superdeck.

This.

[pdiddy]

So is it 6100 out the door with u giving them your core ? Just curious seems like a nice option in the future if u don't have a core it 7400?

[delphigto]

They are great motors I've had a couple in my cars and installing one in a customers car right now.

[delphigto]

I can save you some money on a ERL motor. Pm me if interested.

[Unreal]

Define OTD. Got to pay tax or shipping and provide a usable core. That is the base motor, not the built up super deck. If I was spending that much money pay the extra $1000 for a superdeck.

[Detoxx03]

Overkill for your goals and the Maggie most likely won't even get you there. If you go ERL I'd opt for the superdeck for sure but you don't need 441 cubic inches.

[Fiftydriver]

Originally Posted by Unreal

$6100 with a core, add the $1500 or whatever they charge for now core.

Don't do LSX454. They just aren't that good and not good for boost. Lots of budget parts in them compared to what you can build/buy for the same price.

Checked it is $1300 for ls2 core if you aren't send one in, and that is just their dry sleeve blocks. If you are doing ERL I would really suggest paying the extra and doing the superdeck.

Just learning about these ERL short blocks, what does the Superdeck offer over the dry sleeved short block? Not questioning you, looking for education for myself.

[Fiftydriver]

Originally Posted by Detoxx03

Overkill for your goals and the Maggie most likely won't even get you there. If you go ERL I'd opt for the superdeck for sure but you don't need 441 cubic inches.

I have read a couple guys on here that have LSX454 with standard maggies getting 6 lbs of boost and +800 HP out of them.

Why would the Maggie not be able to support 6 lbs of boost on a 441?

I realize this is overkill but that really is not a word I believe in. To me that just means that if the tune is good, I should never break anything!!!

Plus, it does give me the option down the road if I get bored with that power level to change up the power adder and have the ability to go even higher without stressing the short block.

Again, as mentioned in my original post, want to do this once. I just like the option of the larger displacement and with the 10-1 compression, I think it would be very stout for most street driving which is out of boost and when in boost, be extremely stout!! THe way it sounds, the sleeves used in these blocks are longer then stock sleeves and are designed to offer much more support to the piston with these longer strokes which makes them much more suitable for boosted applications.

Am I wrong in this?

[Unreal]

Sleeves are a bit stronger, but like I said, if you want to do it once and have a motor that will take what you can throw at it, get the superdeck.

I would really look into the 800rwhp Maggie setups. You would be surprised what you find.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Fiftydriver

Just learning about these ERL short blocks, what does the Superdeck offer over the dry sleeved short block? Not questioning you, looking for education for myself.

There are a number of advantages in the Superdeck over the dry sleeved block and "in my opinion" over the LSX block...

A cast block, regardless of who builds it is susceptible to core shift, even if only incrementally.... This leads to differences in wall thickness, which could lead to a failure... Granted these are motors being built to push the limits, so anything can happen to any of them... but.... The ERL superdeck build takes a block, and guts it completely, removing the cylinders, water jackets etc... They build in gussets at critical strength areas, and then install trusses to strengthen the cross section. This is from the inner to the outer cylinder wall areas... After all else is complete, they insert Darton ductile iron sleeves. Ductile iron is stronger to start with than cast iron, and they are precisely machined to specific wall thicknesses...

There are tremendous options available that are determined by your ultimate goals... It's pretty easy to take the cheap way out the first time, but build for contingencies..... ask me how I know this.... my goals grew and so we are now in the process of building the very top of the line motor ERL builds... It's not even listed on their website... It's custom from top to bottom, front to back, and will be in the stratosphere of power for a street driven race car...

The dry sleeved block doesn't have the truss system, nor does it have the extra gussets built in... It's a good block, way better than factory but well behind the Superdeck....

We pushed the limits beyond what we were told it could handle but we made well over 1400 rwhp with the 4 bolt block Superdeck.... We just couldn't keep the heads on it for mile runs... Quarter mile was no problem... The mile will make or break a big build... It's flat brutal on engines and drive line components, which is why we are having the new motor built...

[MikeLA2011ss]

Originally Posted by Detoxx03

Overkill for your goals and the Maggie most likely won't even get you there. If you go ERL I'd opt for the superdeck for sure but you don't need 441 cubic inches.

agreed! that maggie wont get you there! superdeck for sure!

[Fiftydriver]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

There are a number of advantages in the Superdeck over the dry sleeved block and "in my opinion" over the LSX block...

A cast block, regardless of who builds it is susceptible to core shift, even if only incrementally.... This leads to differences in wall thickness, which could lead to a failure... Granted these are motors being built to push the limits, so anything can happen to any of them... but.... The ERL superdeck build takes a block, and guts it completely, removing the cylinders, water jackets etc... They build in gussets at critical strength areas, and then install trusses to strengthen the cross section. This is from the inner to the outer cylinder wall areas... After all else is complete, they insert Darton ductile iron sleeves. Ductile iron is stronger to start with than cast iron, and they are precisely machined to specific wall thicknesses...

There are tremendous options available that are determined by your ultimate goals... It's pretty easy to take the cheap way out the first time, but build for contingencies..... ask me how I know this.... my goals grew and so we are now in the process of building the very top of the line motor ERL builds... It's not even listed on their website... It's custom from top to bottom, front to back, and will be in the stratosphere of power for a street driven race car...

The dry sleeved block doesn't have the truss system, nor does it have the extra gussets built in... It's a good block, way better than factory but well behind the Superdeck....

We pushed the limits beyond what we were told it could handle but we made well over 1400 rwhp with the 4 bolt block Superdeck.... We just couldn't keep the heads on it for mile runs... Quarter mile was no problem... The mile will make or break a big build... It's flat brutal on engines and drive line components, which is why we are having the new motor built...

Thank you for your information, this is what I was looking for and from what you are saying, there are many reasons to go with the superdeck over the dry sleeved blocks.

My next question, is it worth it to step up to the 6 bolt block over the 4 bolt with the superdeck set up? This is one thing I have always liked about the LSX design, just makes a lot of sense to me. 20 years ago I was playing with a 400 ci chevy small block and had a hell of a time keeping head gaskets in place. Adding two bolts per cylinder head just seems like good added insurance.

If I go with the 6 bolt super deck (like the looks of the N1 434 package, What heads would be best to go with, standard LSX? Mast Black label? Again, not looking to make +1000 hp, just want stout engine that will last with street driving in that 750 to max 800 hp at least for now!!!