LS3 vs 5.0 yote? motor only comparison.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by thegreatwhite

was on a mustang forum the other day. they really do think the 5.0 is the greatest thing ever created on earth.

Their not?

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by thegreatwhite

was on a mustang forum the other day. they really do think the 5.0 is the greatest thing ever created on earth.

Everyone in the whole world because of a few people or just those few people think they are the greatest?

Kind of the same from a select few here. Mustangs, Fords, etc. and anything not chevy is junk and GM is the greatest Evar.

Did you post this just to troll and add to the not-so-needed negativity?

When you become a car guy and not just a "one-brand kind o' guy" let me know.

:shrug:

[willhe64]

Nope. would never own a coyote off warranty.
Overhead cams have one advantage only, less reciprocating mass in the valve train. The OHC was invented to combat problems with pushrod engines going over 8000 rpm.
Is this necessary in a motor that redlines at 6500? No.
All it is is marketing hype. And added size weight and complexity.
Wanna change cams in a coyote? $1500 for the cams alone.
Of course F1 uses ohc, they are spinning 14-18,000 rpm.
But, pro stock nhra cars are spinning 11,000 rpm and making 1400 hp out of 500ci naturally aspirated pushrod engines.
The new gt350 motor redlines at 8200 that makes a good case for an ohc engine, but nascar spins their pushrod engines at 9,000 rpm all day long.

[willhe64]

Not brand loyal here either. Traded my 2010 Fusion in on a 2011 Silverado.
Love all american cars.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by willhe64

Nope. would never own a coyote off warranty.
Overhead cams have one advantage only, less reciprocating mass in the valve train. The OHC was invented to combat problems with pushrod engines going over 8000 rpm.
Is this necessary in a motor that redlines at 6500? No.
All it is is marketing hype. And added size weight and complexity.
Wanna change cams in a coyote? $1500 for the cams alone.
Of course F1 uses ohc, they are spinning 14-18,000 rpm.
But, pro stock nhra cars are spinning 11,000 rpm and making 1400 hp out of 500ci naturally aspirated pushrod engines.
The new gt350 motor redlines at 8200 that makes a good case for an ohc engine, but nascar spins their pushrod engines at 9,000 rpm all day long.

Both ProStock and the NASCAR motors are $100,000+ each. ProStock motors have to be rebuilt every other race weekend and NASCAR motors are rebuilt between each race.
The LS3 and Coyote are both $7,000 motors, so it's not really fair to say that "well since XYZ organization uses pushrod motors at 9,000 RPM that must mean they're all capable of that"

The biggest advantage the Coyote has over the LS family is tunability owing to the TI-VCT design with 4 cams native to the DOHC configuration.

Having driven both, owned a variant of one (the L99) I will say I felt the Coyote revved smoother. I've always found the LS series to be a bit truckish and didnt like being revved out, except the LS7...that thing loved to spin.

[essess]

Try to drive a 9k rpm pushrod nascar motor on the street and the shortcoming presents itself. That cam is made to run at 9k and thats it. The 5.0 has individual timing control on each of its 4 cams, so it putts around the grocery store parking lot like your wifes minivan, but moves the high rpm air of your ls3 lumpy cam. The lt1 is going to have a better vvt system but still it cannot do intake and exhaust seperately

[TommyTheCat]

Someone probably answered this already but if pushrods were so great why aren't they used by everyone else? Is it just Dodge and GM? Dodge is one of the least reliable brands right now, so not a great point.
Just like people have pointed out when arguing about the LFX & LS3... The LFX has more horsepower per liter, therefore it's more efficient. Faster? No but a beefed up 6.2L LFX would kick the LS3's ass, due to the advanced technology... Like others have pointed out if they made the coyote engine a 6.2L engine instead of 5.0L, it would surpass the LS3 by a longshot. The horsepower is already almost equal (420 5.0 vs 426 6.2L) and the torque per liter (I know I'll get comments about this) is 67 to 78.
So if the 5.0L was the same displacement size it would have about 520 hp and 483 torque, compared to the LS3's 426 HP & 420 TQ.

Even without going to larger displacement the mustang is faster than the camaro... the 6th gen may change this, and I know this is strictly engine vs engine, but clearly Ford is doing something right.

Still the point remains that the pushrods are obsolete, and if they were not then we would see them in all the top-end sports cars but we don't. Just like someone else pointed out, the Japanese 4 cylinder engines would out perform the American ones, due to the technology not displacement. And of course they were a lot more reliable as well.

LS3 is a great reliable engine no doubt... but it's an engine from the past

[MagnumForceGB]

DOHC also allows a lot broader power curve than pushrod. The LS3 peak torque is at 4600 RPM with its peak HP at 5900 RPM, peak-to-peak of 1300 RPM's. The Coyote peak torque is at 4250 RPM and peak HP at 6500 RPM, peak-to-peak of 2250 RPM's.

[rfopt]

Originally Posted by TommyTheCat

Someone probably answered this already but if pushrods were so great why aren't they used by everyone else? Is it just Dodge and GM? Dodge is one of the least reliable brands right now, so not a great point.
Just like people have pointed out when arguing about the LFX & LS3... The LFX has more horsepower per liter, therefore it's more efficient. Faster? No but a beefed up 6.2L LFX would kick the LS3's ass, due to the advanced technology... Like others have pointed out if they made the coyote engine a 6.2L engine instead of 5.0L, it would surpass the LS3 by a longshot. The horsepower is already almost equal (420 5.0 vs 426 6.2L) and the torque per liter (I know I'll get comments about this) is 67 to 78.
So if the 5.0L was the same displacement size it would have about 520 hp and 483 torque, compared to the LS3's 426 HP & 420 TQ.

Even without going to larger displacement the mustang is faster than the camaro... the 6th gen may change this, and I know this is strictly engine vs engine, but clearly Ford is doing something right.

Still the point remains that the pushrods are obsolete, and if they were not then we would see them in all the top-end sports cars but we don't. Just like someone else pointed out, the Japanese 4 cylinder engines would out perform the American ones, due to the technology not displacement. And of course they were a lot more reliable as well.

LS3 is a great reliable engine no doubt... but it's an engine from the past

GM purposely designs pushrod engines at least partially because all else being equal a pushrod engine is smaller than a DOHC engine when both engines have the same displacement. In the past some manufacturers were influenced to go the OHC/DOHC route because some countries in the past taxed a car based on displacement. OHC can give you more HP with less displacement (not neccessarily an overall smaller engine) with less tax.

Some fans of DOHC say they are more efficient because they have more HP per liter which shows efficiency/size advantages. However, HP/liter is only one factor in efficiency/packaging. Valvetrain design plays an important part as well. A pushrod engine has a smaller size valvetrain than a DOHC engine has and typically lighter in many cases. When I looked in the engine bay of my Camaro 1LE I clearly see that the LS3 engine is noticeably smaller than the 5.0 engine in the 2014 Mustang GT I used to have despite having 1.2 liters more displacement. If GM wanted to they can build a pushrod engine (still with less HP/liter than the Coyote 5.0) and make a lot more horsepower than the LS3 while being no bigger overall than the Coyote 5.0. GM and Dodge pushrod engines are at least as efficient as their competion, IMO.

That being said, I missed the smooth feel of the Coyote engine as it is smoother and overall, subjectively I preferred it over the LS3 (at least as installed in a Camaro). Despite the LS3 feeling more powerful at low RPM, the closer and much more aggressive gearing with the 5.0 with the Track package put a big grin on my face as well. The Coyote engine has decent fuel economy despite the aggressive gearing.

[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by TommyTheCat

Someone probably answered this already but if pushrods were so great why aren't they used by everyone else? Is it just Dodge and GM? Dodge is one of the least reliable brands right now, so not a great point.
Just like people have pointed out when arguing about the LFX & LS3... The LFX has more horsepower per liter, therefore it's more efficient. Faster? No but a beefed up 6.2L LFX would kick the LS3's ass, due to the advanced technology... Like others have pointed out if they made the coyote engine a 6.2L engine instead of 5.0L, it would surpass the LS3 by a longshot. The horsepower is already almost equal (420 5.0 vs 426 6.2L) and the torque per liter (I know I'll get comments about this) is 67 to 78.
So if the 5.0L was the same displacement size it would have about 520 hp and 483 torque, compared to the LS3's 426 HP & 420 TQ.

Even without going to larger displacement the mustang is faster than the camaro... the 6th gen may change this, and I know this is strictly engine vs engine, but clearly Ford is doing something right.

Still the point remains that the pushrods are obsolete, and if they were not then we would see them in all the top-end sports cars but we don't. Just like someone else pointed out, the Japanese 4 cylinder engines would out perform the American ones, due to the technology not displacement. And of course they were a lot more reliable as well.

LS3 is a great reliable engine no doubt... but it's an engine from the past

That engine from the past still does everything better than its Ford counterpart. Your theory that a Coyote with 6.2 liters would make a lot more power than a LS3 is a good educated guess but since were on the topic of hypotheticals how about we give the LS3 4 valves per cylinder, 4 cams and Ti-VCT. What would the LS3 make then in relation to this gigantic 6.2 Coyote? You see its a double sided door. If pushrods were so ancient and obsolete why did GM make the 6.2 LT1 and LT4? Why does power and efficiency keep going up?

Again people keep bringing up a MEANINGLESS stat of power per liter. You need to stop because it has 0 merit.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

That engine from the past still does everything better than its Ford counterpart. Your theory that a Coyote with 6.2 liters would make a lot more power than a LS3 is a good educated guess but since were on the topic of hypotheticals how about we give the LS3 4 valves per cylinder, 4 cams and Ti-VCT. What would the LS3 make then in relation to this gigantic 6.2 Coyote?

My take - it'd be a wash, given comparable development.

You see its a double sided door. If pushrods were so ancient and obsolete why did GM make the 6.2 LT1 and LT4? Why does power and efficiency keep going up?

For one thing, a larger displacement engine is better suited to displacement-on-demand. This appears to be the path that Chevy/GM is following, so it makes all the sense in the world for their V8 engines to end up closer to 6 liters than 5.

Again people keep bringing up a MEANINGLESS stat of power per liter. You need to stop because it has 0 merit.

Zero merit because your engine preference drew the short straw? I actually like the Chevy engines and see no place for that kind of argument against the efficiency of power production. "Just keep make it bigger until it's more powerful than the other guy's motor" doesn't work for the OE's any more.

To date, normalizing the amount of power on a displacement basis is the ONLY REASONABLE WAY to compare two powerplants of significantly different displacement. This isn't the usual 2-liter Honda vs pushrod V8 comparison where the total amounts of power are lots different, so let's stop trying to make it sound like it is.

But given that you're unwilling to work with power per liter, let's try to find something closer to the 5.0 TI-VCT in the LS engine series and make some direct comparisons, m'kay?

I'll use the 5.3, with specs below (it's actually a pretty damn nice engine). Note that the bore and stroke aren't all that different from the Coyote's 92.2 mm bore and 92.7 mm stroke. If anything at, the 5.3's larger bore should give it a breathing advantage by permitting either relatively larger valves or less shrouding. Your choice.

L83

Dubbed EcoTec3 5.3 L is a Generation V small block V8 truck engine.(VIN Code "C") Like its Vortec 5300 Generation IV predecessor, it gets its displacement from 96.01 mm (3.78 in) bore and 92 mm ( 3.62 in) stroke with a compression ratio of 11.0 to 1.
355 hp (265 kW) @ 5600 rpm
383 lb·ft (519 N·m) @ 4100 rpm

Compare that to only the 420 hp @ 6500 and 390 ft-lbs @ 4250 of the earlier version of the Coyote. It's down by 65 hp, 7 ft-lbs, and 750 rpm worth of powerband width. Significant enough if both engines were the same displacement, but the L83 is still the bigger displacement engine.


I know you don't want to hear about hp & torque per liter, but let's compare the above L83 with the LS3 to see how they stack up against each other, pushrod motor vs pushrod motor.
L83 . . . 355 / 5.3 = 67 hp/L . . . 383 / 5.3 = 72.3 ft-lb/L
LS3 . . . 426 / 6.2 = 68.7 hp/L . . . 420 / 6.2 = 67.7 ft-lb/L

They're actually pretty close on normalized HP/L (which doesn't say great things about the 6.2 needing 900 more rpm to get its small advantage there), and the 5.3 actually beats the 6.2 on specific torque (but still loses to the Coyote).


Norm

[Firefighter]

Norm, while I see the logic it what you are saying the L83 is not built with performance in mind. Small cam low, compression, induction not designed for performance. I mean when a hor rodder gets his hands on a 5.3L they regularly see 500HP and Gobs of TQ at the Fly Wheel. With little more than correcting the mild mannered specs. LS3's are easily mid 600's N/A fly wheel again. All this is achieved much cheaper than doing a OHC motor and much smaller and lighter.

I can't say honestly that a Coyote is a bad motor because it's not. I can say though that given the choice I prefer the positive features of an LS motor over the positives of a FORD OHC motor.

This whole argument could be settled with two identical cars each with a bone stock motors from this conversation. Then run them best of 3...



Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk

[bayarea408]

If you put a coyote motor in a 5th gen and raced it against a ls3 5th gen given equal drivers tires etc...

The ls3 will win


Same scenario in a coyote stang. Bastardize a coyote and put a ls3 in it versus a stock coyote. The ls3 swapped coyote will win.

[MagnumForceGB]

The bullshit just got extremely deep in this thread. So glad I actually go to the track and truely race instead of bench racing.