WHEELS CHANGE PERFORMANCE

[ablackburn99]

Anyone have lighter or smaller (heavier/larger) wheels that noticed a differance in acc./braking/handling/ride comfort/mpg/track time/dyno?

If so, what size/weight/brand?

[Doc]

I went from the factory 20's to 3-piece forged 19's which combined with the tires saved 36 lbs total for all 4 wheels. Acceleration, braking, handling and ride all improved. MPG didn't seem to change and I haven't been on the track yet. I didn't get a dyno before doing all my mods so I don't have a baseline to refer to but I'm planning on a dyno run in a few weeks.

The rims I have are Nutek 505's (NineBall on the forum is a dealer) in a 19 x 9.5 all the way around and they weigh 25 lbs each. Tires are Hankook Ventus V12 Evos and they weigh 29 lbs each.

Compare the weight of each of these at 54 lbs versus the factory front 20 x 8's which weigh (if I remember right) about 62 lbs and the factory rear 20 x 9's which weigh 67 lbs. Those weights are with tires.

The car has less understeer and feels much more balanced now.

[ablackburn99]

What did you pay for the wheels?

Any pics?

[seddon]

I went with D2 Forged 3 piece 22x9 and 22x11 didn't really a loss in power but a big difference in grip and traction the wider wheels and tires are planted on the floor. If you worried about 30-40 pounds get rid of the stock exhaust and go aftermarket will save some weight. I personally wouldn't worry about a few pounds.

[Nine Ball]

Seddon, rotating mass is far worse than static mass though. If you lighten your wheels, brake rotors, driveshaft, flywheel, etc... you will certainly gain performance. Also, moment of inertia comes into play when going with larger diameter wheels. Moment of Inertia. Some of these guys putting heavy cast 22s on their Camaros that are meant for SUV's are really killing performance.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by ablackburn99

What did you pay for the wheels?

Any pics?

You can get a price quote from Nine Ball; mine were a special deal I got by being the first to request a wheel for a 2010 Camaro from Nutek and allowing them to use my car for developing the wheel. Jim at Nutek asked me not to tell but they're not cheap, however they were exactly what I wanted with a custom paint theme.

I'm going for a Blue Angel's theme that's also somewhat like the Sunoco Camaro theme.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

Seddon, rotating mass is far worse than static mass though. If you lighten your wheels, brake rotors, driveshaft, flywheel, etc... you will certainly gain performance. Also, moment of inertia comes into play when going with larger diameter wheels. Moment of Inertia. Some of these guys putting heavy cast 22s on their Camaros that are meant for SUV's are really killing performance.

Originally Posted by seddon

I went with D2 Forged 3 piece 22x9 and 22x11 didn't really a loss in power but a big difference in grip and traction the wider wheels and tires are planted on the floor. If you worried about 30-40 pounds get rid of the stock exhaust and go aftermarket will save some weight. I personally wouldn't worry about a few pounds.

UNSPRUNG rotating mass is a number one area for improving performance. Saving 10 lbs of unsprung rotating mass per corner has the same effect as removing 160 lbs of sprung mass. It's the dead weight x 4; 4 wheels = 40 lbs x 4 = 160. It does more than you might think.

The ability of the suspension including the shocks, bushings, etc. to handle the mass is also affected by how much weight it's trying to manage. Every little up or down movement is handled by the suspension which is trying to keep the tires in contact with the surface. The difference between 55 and 70 lbs is considerable when springs and shocks are trying to manage it. Weight adds strain to tires, bushings and shocks.

There's also the factor of the amount of torque it takes to get that mass in motion, and the amount of braking force it takes to slow it down. The more unsprung rotating mass, the more engine power and torque it takes to get it moving. It literally absorbs and requires more power to move. Once that mass is in motion, it takes more braking power to slow it down so in a side-by-side braking test, with 2 identical cars except for wheels, the one with the heavier wheels will take longer to stop. That's very bad for racing and on the street can be the difference between stopping in time or not.

I've saved 7 lbs with the tire/rim combo, 6 lbs with the brake rotor, 5 lbs with the Pedder's coilover for each front wheel, and 12 lbs with the tire/rim combo in the back compared to the stock 20's. I'll save another 5 or 6 lbs in the back per corner when Racing Brake completes and ships the rear rotors; I already have their rotors on the front. And my tires are 1.5 inches wider in front and .5 inches wider in the back compared to stock. This car grips like crazy and tracks surfaces quite well.

On wheels there's also the factor of where the weight is. How far from the center is the weight? As a test to illustrate this to yourself, pick up a broom, hold it in the middle and twist your wrist. Note how much twisting force (torque) it takes to rotate it left and right. Now move your hand to the end of the handle and try it again. You'll note how much heavier the broom feels and how much more force it takes from your wrist to move it the same way. The broom weighs exactly the same but by moving the weight further from the center you can directly feel how much more power it takes to move it and how much "heavier" it feels. That's an exaggerated example to illustrate the effect but that's what happens with a larger and larger rim, even if it weighs the same as a smaller one.

Not everyone cares of course; some are more into show than go and they like big rims stuffed into their wheel wells because that's what the designer show cars have. It's up to you and what you want but just know that there's a trade-off; bigger and more show equals a hit in performance whether you fully realize it or not. There's a reason why you don't see huge rims with rubber band tires on race cars; they understand it full well and in their world, performance is everything.

Some people will swear they are just as fast with big wheels but if you let them do 5 timed laps on a road course, then switched their 21's or 22's with 19's or 18's and let them do another 5 laps, their times would improve. They'd be amazed at the improvements in handling and steering response and being able to go into a corner deeper before starting to brake.

Bigger rims and the tires for them are more expensive too. You can expect to pay probably around $1,200 and up for a set of performance tires for a 22, while the tires for my 19's run $700 a set. That $500 per set I'm saving can go towards other upgrades (which it has hehe). It all depends on what's the most important to you and what kind of experience you want with your car but there's a good solid performance reason to go with smaller wheels if performance is your main goal.

[Nine Ball]

Doc beats his small wheel drum loudly

Several variables here that aren't mentioned though. Tire brand, weights, compound, widths, etc... all play a much bigger role at the track than just diameter alone. Even having too much width can hurt you sometimes, due to more weight. Just be careful about generalizing based on wheel diameter. A guy rolling on 18s with craptastic tires will get owned at the track by someone on 20s with better tires. Same tires, sure the 18s *should* handle and accelerate quicker.

Also Doc, you could shave even more weight from your 19s by going with a race prepped wheel. Lighter forging profile, titanium hardware, and stepped lips. There is still room for improvement. That extra paint on your wheels added weight too, hehe.

However, that is a bit extreme. I don't think anyone here that still drives their Camaro on the street is that hardcore. If weight was the main issue, they simply started with the wrong car in the first place. There are a lot of ways to reduce weight on the Camaro, as heavy as it is.

Tony

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

Doc beats his small wheel drum loudly

Yessir.

Several variables here that aren't mentioned though. Tire brand, weights, compound, widths, etc... all play a much bigger role at the track than just diameter alone. Even having too much width can hurt you sometimes, due to more weight. Just be careful about generalizing based on wheel diameter. A guy rolling on 18s with craptastic tires will get owned at the track by someone on 20s with better tires. Same tires, sure the 18s *should* handle and accelerate quicker.

Figured I'd pounded the drum enough but the tire you choose has a very definite effect. Wheel size alone doesn't automatically guarantee better handling, but it does guarantee no weight penalty. Setting up the chassis for handling and having the driving skill to use it counts for a great deal too.

Also Doc, you could shave even more weight from your 19s by going with a race prepped wheel. Lighter forging profile, titanium hardware, and stepped lips. There is still room for improvement. That extra paint on your wheels added weight too, hehe.

We looked at titanium hardware but the costs didn't justify the gain for my application which is primarily street with an occasional track use. Yeah there's probably a pound in paint but it looks so much better than plain aluminum.

However, that is a bit extreme. I don't think anyone here that still drives their Camaro on the street is that hardcore. If weight was the main issue, they simply started with the wrong car in the first place. There are a lot of ways to reduce weight on the Camaro, as heavy as it is.

Tony

Yeah I'm not building a full-time race car. But I understand the value of what they do and I love the looks of the Sunoco Camaros. I'm looking at 3.91 gears in the rear and a carbon fiber driveshaft as being probably the last 2 suspension/drivetrain mods at this point. The car just may be good enough at that point to not need to do anything to the engine but spend time driving it on the track to upgrade the driver mod which is probably the most important upgrade.

[youngmaro]

I'm thinking about getting 22" mht multi piece forged wheels. probably 22x9 in the front and 22x11 in the rear (let me know if there's a better combo for 22's). Mine is a daily driver and will never see a track. Do you think I'll lose a substantial amount of passing power?

[PQ]

You can be serious about show AND go, and get 21-22 inch wheels.

There are different ways to do this.

So you have to add a few more ponies and mod the car up a little more to beat that Shelby or whatever. It can be done. Plus, you can keep a set of 19s around also.

YES, tall rims will slow you a bit, but I think it's exagerated a great deal. At least in perception.

Same suspension, same HP and mods, and the only difference being 22 inch wheels against 18s with good tires, ya, you're gonna get beat. But if you have stiffer suspension for the twisties, and 50 more ponies and torque, you should win.

It's just another factor in the whole equation. A factor that can be overcome.

Now, it just takes that other guy to add to his car to equal up the mods again, and you have the dissadvantage again. Eventually I will get me some 19s and go to the track every once in a while, but for now, I'll just make sure I have the right stuff to beat that GT-500 even WITH 22 inch wheels.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by PQ

You can be serious about show AND go, and get 21-22 inch wheels.

There are different ways to do this.

So you have to add a few more ponies and mod the car up a little more to beat that Shelby or whatever. It can be done. Plus, you can keep a set of 19s around also.

YES, tall rims will slow you a bit, but I think it's exagerated a great deal. At least in perception.

Same suspension, same HP and mods, and the only difference being 22 inch wheels against 18s with good tires, ya, you're gonna get beat. But if you have stiffer suspension for the twisties, and 50 more ponies and torque, you should win.

It's just another factor in the whole equation. A factor that can be overcome.

Now, it just takes that other guy to add to his car to equal up the mods again, and you have the dissadvantage again. Eventually I will get me some 19s and go to the track every once in a while, but for now, I'll just make sure I have the right stuff to beat that GT-500 even WITH 22 inch wheels.

Before you decide the difference is exaggerated, get your 19's and do a test. Run some laps with your standard 22's, then switch to the 19's and see how much actual difference there is. I noticed it just going from 20's to 19's; I can imagine what it would feel like going from 22's. The car feels more alive, more responsive.

I'd really be interested in hearing your report; you'd give an honest no-bs evaluation.

[Hot Rod]

Doc,

I love the way your car looks with those 19" rims. After reading your post you have convinced me this is the only way to go. I have a few question. What have you done to your suspension? I think the stance is perfect. One of my greatest fears is lowering my car and it not looking right. Why does yours fit like that? Are the rims offset? Do the rims make the stance look good? Is it the suspension? Is it the tires? What should I be looking for to get this stance?

My objectives are performance and style for a daily driver. I plan on buying a V6 and the more I look into, the more I think I'll buy and LS and modify it to the point where it costs me as much as buying the Synergy Camaro I want, approx. $26,374.00 - not exactly including wheels and tires. If the wheels and tires cost me around $2000.00 that the same as getting the Synergy with Intake and full exhaust only modifications.

Thanks for your help!

Hot Rod

[rayhawk]

Originally Posted by Doc

You can get a price quote from Nine Ball; mine were a special deal I got by being the first to request a wheel for a 2010 Camaro from Nutek and allowing them to use my car for developing the wheel. Jim at Nutek asked me not to tell but they're not cheap, however they were exactly what I wanted with a custom paint theme.

I'm going for a Blue Angel's theme that's also somewhat like the Sunoco Camaro theme.

What size tires are you running?