Anyone Remember the EV1

[GrnMchin]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

My bad. Thanks Fen!


It's all good, my friend!

I'm glad you brought this up, by the way....those buses are the result of an initiative undertaken by the public transportation system and GM.

This truly is a remarkable article:
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives...ybrid_bus.html

Riding one of these buses is similarly efficient to riding a bike...

Thanks for the good to know info.

[Number 3]

Boy this is an interesting thread.

First of all, if you want to say GM dropped the ball that's fine. The movie makers are entitled to an opinion and anyone who wants to believe that opinion may do so. Hey, I wasn't in the conference rooms so maybe there was skull duggery, but I doubt it.

As I recall, each EV1 cost 80,000 to 100,000 for GM to produce...............each. And as there were only 1,000 or so built the $1,000,000,000 in development of the technology would, in very simple business terms, have added $1,000,000 to each EV1 just to break even. I'm not sure all the people that were lining up and bashing GM for not selling them were thinking in those terms. I think they all figured GM should have just sold them for $20,000, not the break even of (Dr. Evil.......pinky at corner of mouth) 1.1 Meeeeellion dollars.

The subsidized leases were I believe $600 per month. And GM covered the maintainance etc. The costs for the customer to have maintained one of these aluminum body and frame bonded together techno wonders would have been unbelievable. Can you imagine calling Geico for a policy on one?

I was working at the Milford Proving Grounds years ago in a bay next to a guy working on the EV1. It was a cold February day. "How far would that go on a day like today?", I asked. "About 15 miles", he answered back.

The Volt is a moon shot compared to the Wright Brothers EV1. It's electric range is protected, hot or cold. Range anxiety, still the major hurdle in Pure EVs is non-existent with the Volt as once you have depleted the battery, the ICE will fire up and you can drive in Charge Sustaining Mode.

I've driven both cars. Both are cool just for simply being electricly propelled. But the Volt is 10 x the technology and 10 x the car the EV1 was.

Also, the is a big game of liars poker going on for EPA ratings. GM is trying to push for a common methodology. So for Nissan to say 300 MPG equivalent means what? Everyone is jumping out there claiming 100 or more miles EV range. Under what conditions and temperatures? Driving how hard? On hills? The best I read of for an EV1 with the 2nd generation bateries was 130 miles, steady state, no wind, flat as can be flat road.

So believe what side of the EV1 story makes sense to you. Yes, if there truly were 100s of thousands of people lining up, maybe GM could have continued the program in some fashion.

And yes, many of the people on the Volt Program had some experience in the EV1 so there is bit of that history there.

[cHaotix]

There should be a "Thank" or "Like" option for posts like the one above.

[GrnMchin]

GM built 1,117 of the cars between 1996 and 1999, including 660 "Generation I" EV1 cars in the 1997 model year (1996-97) and 457 "Generation II" EV1 cars in the 1999 model year (1998-99). Then crushed them all that wasn't that financially smart ether. Some offered to buy the cars and I'm sure they wanted to protect R&D secrets, but that argument that they cost to much makes me scratch my head when they end up crushing them. If your not going to sell them why produce so many. There is allot that goes into car production so please educate me. If they made it a smaller R&D project and spent a little less maybe when Honda and Toyota came out GM could have buried them.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

GM built 1,117 of the cars between 1996 and 1999, including 660 "Generation I" EV1 cars in the 1997 model year (1996-97) and 457 "Generation II" EV1 cars in the 1999 model year (1998-99). Then crushed them all that wasn't that financially smart ether. Some offered to buy the cars and I'm sure they wanted to protect R&D secrets, but that argument that they cost to much makes me scratch my head when they end up crushing them. If your not going to sell them why produce so many. There is allot that goes into car production so please educate me. If they made it a smaller R&D project and spent a little less maybe when Honda and Toyota came out GM could have buried them.

1,117 units produced in 3 years is nowhere near high production. I believe GM sold close to that number of Corvettes just last month.

Did you read my previous reply to this thread? If GM decided to allow the people who wanted to buy one to keep their EV1s and something went wrong, GM would be liable. It's the same reason GM has to crush IVER cars and can't sell those to the public, even though some here have expressed interest in buying one of the Camaro IVERs. In the end, it cost less to just be safe and dispose of the cars than risk potential lawsuits.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

Then crushed them all that wasn't that financially smart ether. Some offered to buy the cars and I'm sure they wanted to protect R&D secrets, but that argument that they cost to much makes me scratch my head when they end up crushing them. If your not going to sell them why produce so many. There is allot that goes into car production so please educate me. If they made it a smaller R&D project and spent a little less maybe when Honda and Toyota came out GM could have buried them.

A couple of reasons...The EV1 program, as I understand it, is very similar to the current Project Driveway GM is doing right now (Fuel Cell Equinoxes). Those vehicles cost many millions a piece if you spread out development costs, like Number 3 said. However -- they were forever GM's property. Not a one was sold.

The crushing of the cars was a relatively smart choice given the cancellation of the program, because it protected their technology. It's the same reason they leased them. "owners" were obligated to take care of the car, and return it. It was more a test-fleet program than a production run. Toyota never got ahold of one, for example -- they couldn't reverse engineer them. And that's part of the reason the Volt will be able to step on them...

1000-2000 cars is not alot. It's a drop in the bucket, actually...since that's less than one car per dealer....crushing them really was a choice totally separate from the cost associated with the action. Most of that money was tied up in R&D...the crushing of cars didn't effect that.

And if they had spent less money on the program...then the vehicles would have been even worse, and they would have proportionally lost the same amount of money on that cheaper program.

The core problem with the EV1 was the fact that it was unpopular in its time, impractical, and expensive.

[GrnMchin]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

1,117 units produced in 3 years is nowhere near high production. I believe GM sold close to that number of Corvettes just last month.

Did you read my previous reply to this thread? If GM decided to allow the people who wanted to buy one to keep their EV1s and something went wrong, GM would be liable. It's the same reason GM has to crush IVER cars and can't sell those to the public, even though some here have expressed interest in buying one of the Camaro IVERs. In the end, it cost less to just be safe and dispose of the cars than risk potential lawsuits.

I understand that aspect, but why buil 1000 unit. Is it just for testing, because that seems a bit high. I'M not sure thats why I asked. Seems you could build 200 unit for testing. Again

[GrnMchin]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

A couple of reasons...The EV1 program, as I understand it, is very similar to the current Project Driveway GM is doing right now (Fuel Cell Equinoxes). Those vehicles cost many millions a piece if you spread out development costs, like Number 3 said. However -- they were forever GM's property. Not a one was sold.

The crushing of the cars was a relatively smart choice given the cancellation of the program, because it protected their technology. It's the same reason they leased them. "owners" were obligated to take care of the car, and return it. It was more a test-fleet program than a production run. Toyota never got ahold of one, for example -- they couldn't reverse engineer them. And that's part of the reason the Volt will be able to step on them...

1000-2000 cars is not alot. It's a drop in the bucket, actually...since that's less than one car per dealer....crushing them really was a choice totally separate from the cost associated with the action. Most of that money was tied up in R&D...the crushing of cars didn't effect that.

And if they had spent less money on the program...then the vehicles would have been even worse, and they would have proportionally lost the same amount of money on that cheaper program.

The core problem with the EV1 was the fact that it was unpopular in its time, impractical, and expensive.

Thanks again.

I'm not up to speed on the production aspect of the auto industy so needed some help.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

I understand that aspect, but why buil 1000 unit. Is it just for testing, because that seems a bit high. I'M not sure thats why I asked. Seems you could build 200 unit for testing. Again

To be honest, I don't know why GM built that many units. I wasn't in the boardroom when they made those decisions. But I do know that the more times you do an experiment, the better your overall results and findings will be.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

Thanks again.

I'm not up to speed on the production aspect of the auto industy so needed some help.

Of course!!
I hope Number 3 can respond to your question, because I'm positive his response would eclipse mine.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

But I do know that the more times you do an experiment, the better your overall results and findings will be.

+1. For example:

Project Driveway is comprised of 300 fuel cell SUVs. They have passed the 1,000,000 mile mark cumulatively, and have provided sooo much constructive feedback that GM has seen fit to take the program out of R&D, and shifted it to Powertrain!! Now it's treated like every other production program, and they are shedding weight, improving design, and making the system more simplistic at a radical pace!

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

I understand that aspect, but why buil 1000 unit. Is it just for testing, because that seems a bit high. I'M not sure thats why I asked. Seems you could build 200 unit for testing. Again

I think there were something like 500 Camaros built for testing, such as Number 3's number 3. The Camaro was built from a lot of existing components and systems, such as the LS3 engine from the Corvette, with a conventional body structure, and generally pretty normal. The EV1 was almost completely unique. I think it shared some components like suspension or steering (can't back this up though) were common with Saturns. So it makes perfect sense that GM would create a much more massive test fleet than normal.

[MLL67RSSS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I was working at the Milford Proving Grounds years ago in a bay next to a guy working on the EV1. It was a cold February day. "How far would that go on a day like today?", I asked. "About 15 miles", he answered back.

That's why they were only available for lease in warmer climates. Here's a couple of C&P's from Wikipedia ( I'm lazy, don't want to type it all myself)

"The EV1 was made available through limited lease-only agreements, initially to residents of the cities of Los Angeles, California and Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona. EV1 lessees were officially participants in a "real-world engineering evaluation" and market study into the feasibility of producing and marketing a commuter electric vehicle in select U.S. markets undertaken by GM's Advanced Technology Vehicles group. The cars were not available for purchase, and could be serviced only at designated Saturn dealerships. Within a year of the EV1's release, leasing programs were also launched in San Francisco and Sacramento, California, along with a limited program in the state of Georgia."

Also a big part of why they bothered to spend the billion dollars on the limited "experiment" was they wanted to continue to sells cars in California.

"The decision to mass-produce an electric car came after GM received a favorable reception for its 1990 Impact electric concept car, upon which the design of the EV1 drew heavily. Inspired partly by the Impact's perceived potential for success, the California Air Resources Board subsequently passed a mandate that made the production and sale of zero-emission vehicles a requirement for the seven major automakers selling cars in the United States to continue to market their vehicles in California."

And a quote from another article:

"According to GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, his worst decision of his tenure at GM was 'axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids. It didn’t affect profitability, but it did affect image.' CEO Wagoner repeated this assertion during an NPR interview with Michelle Norris after the December 2008 Senate hearings on the U.S. Auto Industry bailout request."

Believe it or not I did a short contract stint (about 10 months) at a plant that Delco/Delphi leased in Indianapolis that built the EV1's battery packs. They produced the "T" shaped EV1 lead-acid battery packs and while I was there watched one of the guys building one of the first nickel-metal hydride protoype packs. I worked on the team that built GM's first hybrid prototypes using a Pontiac Grand-Am and Oldsmobile Achieva that we modified. They also built the GM electric and hybrid buses there. Right before I left we got the Achieva running and all got to take it for a short drive around the parking lot (until the fasteners backed out on the second clutch pack and we had to shut it down). The Grand-Am was more of a "show car" that we shipped all over for them to show off. So GM actually had a running hybrid prototype in the mid '90's. Also while I was there one day they brought in the Impact land speed record car (a little over 183 MPH) a took a bunch of pictures of the developement teams with it since the batteries were assembled there, handed out a bunch of press photo's with all the info on the back. I have a couple at home somewhere.

[AngryAmish]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

That movie is one of the most worthless pieces of film in history...second only to "the Village"...


/rant....I really hate that film.

Obviously, you have never seen the film "Knowing."
It makes The Village look like Pulp Fiction.