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Old 12-23-2013, 01:30 AM   #1
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shorties with twin turbos?

after making polls and saying i didnt know which super charger i wanted i decided that i want twin turbos. (andymon is convincing me to get the turbos) only down part is i have to get rid of my LT headers im deffinetly going to miss them but ill like the twin turbos more for sure. but i was wondering if shorty headers would work with turbos, also what do you guys think about the sound of shorties? ive never heard them in person.
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:14 AM   #2
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All the research I've read leads towards stock manifolds. They retain heat better than shorties, which will keep those high temps from reaching your turbos.
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:28 AM   #3
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ARH work but you are going to hear the turbos over any "header" noise. Don't worry, turbos sound glorious and you will love it. Stock manifolds are fine for 1200+rwhp. Only reason to run shorties is to clear 6 bolt heads or if you like ARH enough to want to give them money. Otherwise factory manifolds are good.
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Old 12-23-2013, 12:49 PM   #4
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Sell the headers and like the others have said, you can use shorties or the stock manifolds... The shorties will flow better than stock manifolds....

Until you get into high boost levels (greater than 12 lbs) the stock manifolds are fine...

Headers are designed to scavenge exhaust by one pulse creating a vacumn to help pull the next pulse etc...

Turbo "manifolds" are just a device to get the exhaust to the turbos... The shorty "headers" will work better than stock manifolds, but like before, until you exceed 12 or so lbs of boost, stock manifolds are fine...

I was creating too much back pressure with the stock manifolds but I'm running as much as 24 lbs of boost to this point, soon to be around 30 lbs of boost... We have custom turbo "manifolds" made for the car...

Anything that will flow more air will allow for more power, and the stock manifolds do neck down quite a bit inside...

One pic is my original exhaust manifold, and the other is my new custom Turbo manifolds...

As you can see on the original manifold, there was a ton of backpressure and lots of associated heat... It was costing me power... at 18 lbs of boost, so we built the custom manifolds... We now have substantially less back pressure, and lots more available boost... We are tuned for 24 lbs with the right fuel in the tank but are going to 30 lbs before long...

One more thing to consider, is that if you are going to use Shorties, make sure they are substantial enough to support the turbos... With all the associated heat and weight of the turbos, you dont want them sagging and creating other problems...
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Old 12-23-2013, 01:47 PM   #5
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the reason im asking is because i want it to be louder haha
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Old 12-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #6
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Stock manifolds all the way! Having headers and turbo's won't really make it louder as the turbo's act like a muffler. Don't worry if you get the AGP and leave the wastegate's open to atmosphere it'll be plenty loud! Plus hearing the turbo's spool up sounds amazing If you have any questions on their kit please let me know!
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Old 12-23-2013, 04:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
Sell the headers and like the others have said, you can use shorties or the stock manifolds... The shorties will flow better than stock manifolds....

Until you get into high boost levels (greater than 12 lbs) the stock manifolds are fine...

Headers are designed to scavenge exhaust by one pulse creating a vacumn to help pull the next pulse etc...

Turbo "manifolds" are just a device to get the exhaust to the turbos... The shorty "headers" will work better than stock manifolds, but like before, until you exceed 12 or so lbs of boost, stock manifolds are fine...

I was creating too much back pressure with the stock manifolds but I'm running as much as 24 lbs of boost to this point, soon to be around 30 lbs of boost... We have custom turbo "manifolds" made for the car...

Anything that will flow more air will allow for more power, and the stock manifolds do neck down quite a bit inside...

One pic is my original exhaust manifold, and the other is my new custom Turbo manifolds...

As you can see on the original manifold, there was a ton of backpressure and lots of associated heat... It was costing me power... at 18 lbs of boost, so we built the custom manifolds... We now have substantially less back pressure, and lots more available boost... We are tuned for 24 lbs with the right fuel in the tank but are going to 30 lbs before long...

One more thing to consider, is that if you are going to use Shorties, make sure they are substantial enough to support the turbos... With all the associated heat and weight of the turbos, you dont want them sagging and creating other problems...
Given the turbocharger itself is the ultimate restriction in the system. When you changed the manifolds, and were able to make use of more boost, was that the only change made at that time ?

Ive just adapted some truck manifolds for my car, and decided to retain a single 2" ID Sch10 pipe to the turbo.
But even the BW with the 68mm turbine and 0.88 open scroll, where it necks down is surprisingly a lot smaller than the 2" ID tube I used to reach the turbo itself.

I know headers are more efficient in terms of power, and flow. But when you see how small the scroll is inside, it does make you wonder.

Also, how much backpressure vs boost were you seeing with the stock manifolds vs the tubular with the same turbos etc ?
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Old 12-23-2013, 05:28 PM   #8
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Agreed, considering the hole that the air has to go through headers shouldn't make that big of a difference. Since the manifold is pressurized and turbos work off pressure differential the idea of headers using scavenging and pulse goes out the window too.
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Old 12-23-2013, 05:52 PM   #9
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I'm certainly not saying tubular headers wont be a benefit. I'm genuinely asking the question how much, what do actual test results show ?

There is also the issue of trying to isolate cylinders to a degree for as long as possible, which longer tubes will do.

Whilst yes turbos do use pressure, they also use heat energy, they also use flow. In an ideal world we'd have as little pressure pre-turbine as possible. So we certainly cannot say pressure in there is a good thing.

Plus reading on tech etc, there does seem to be a lot of discussion saying that with a single, even a 2.5" crossover tube....ie a feed for 4cyls is huge even well beyond 4 figures.

Which lead me to opt for the small 2" ID pipe. Plus it makes finding room for the damn things easier ! lol
Plus it should maybe assist with spool too I hope.

eg. BW T4 flange, 0.88 open scroll.. It's tiny in there !!! The Exducer is also 68mm OD, with substantial taken by the wheel itself, so is 2" too big, too small ? and given some flow will be dumped out the gate too.



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Old 12-23-2013, 07:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
Given the turbocharger itself is the ultimate restriction in the system. When you changed the manifolds, and were able to make use of more boost, was that the only change made at that time ?

Ive just adapted some truck manifolds for my car, and decided to retain a single 2" ID Sch10 pipe to the turbo.
But even the BW with the 68mm turbine and 0.88 open scroll, where it necks down is surprisingly a lot smaller than the 2" ID tube I used to reach the turbo itself.

I know headers are more efficient in terms of power, and flow. But when you see how small the scroll is inside, it does make you wonder.

Also, how much backpressure vs boost were you seeing with the stock manifolds vs the tubular with the same turbos etc ?
We were not physically measuring the back pressure as such... We did a pre and post series of dyno pulls. We did three pulls prior to the change from the factory manifolds and three following the change at roughly the same time of day... Weather was pretty consistent... We picked up just over 100 RWHP all other things being the same... By tuning and allowing for the free flowing exhaust, we were able to pick up another 25-30 rwhp by adjusting the timing just a bit in the mid range... and picked up lots of torque down low.... The biggest problem we had was the turbo acceleration speeds... They spun up almost immediately... This led to me blowing up two turbos from over accelerating them at mile runs... and lots of blowing tires off... It hit like a ton of bricks...

We later went from the 67/66 turbos to the 76/75 turbos. We now have a very smooth torque line and a continually climbing hp line on the dyno... It doesn't hit near as hard but it goes way beyond what the smaller turbos did... and my IAT's are way lower than they used to be... We are back in the sweet spot of the boost map... according to Precision... Here's one for you on post turbo pressure...

By removing the three inch exhaust from my car for the mile, and installing the 12" long 3.5 inch turndowns, we picked up over 100 RWHP...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post
Agreed, considering the hole that the air has to go through headers shouldn't make that big of a difference. Since the manifold is pressurized and turbos work off pressure differential the idea of headers using scavenging and pulse goes out the window too.
I agree up to about 12 lbs of boost, or over 400 cubic inches, then the air flow is so high that excessive back pressure is encountered... And yes, scavenging is a thing of the past with turbos...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
I'm certainly not saying tubular headers wont be a benefit. I'm genuinely asking the question how much, what do actual test results show ?

There is also the issue of trying to isolate cylinders to a degree for as long as possible, which longer tubes will do.

Whilst yes turbos do use pressure, they also use heat energy, they also use flow. In an ideal world we'd have as little pressure pre-turbine as possible. So we certainly cannot say pressure in there is a good thing.

Plus reading on tech etc, there does seem to be a lot of discussion saying that with a single, even a 2.5" crossover tube....ie a feed for 4cyls is huge even well beyond 4 figures.

Which lead me to opt for the small 2" ID pipe. Plus it makes finding room for the damn things easier ! lol
Plus it should maybe assist with spool too I hope.

eg. BW T4 flange, 0.88 open scroll.. It's tiny in there !!! The Exducer is also 68mm OD, with substantial taken by the wheel itself, so is 2" too big, too small ? and given some flow will be dumped out the gate too.
I don't disagree with this... but... there are trade offs for everything... We can't compare a 2 litre or smaller motor and a given turbo size/scroll size to a 6 or 7 litre plus motor in air flow... The mechanic that works on my car has a 2.0 litre motor that makes 1026 AWHP via one big single turbo... The smaller piping will allow for higher velocity air flow, whether it be exhaust of charge air... but that comes with increased friction.

The opposite effect is too large a diameter of pipe causing a big void to charge prior to actually seeing boost... I have 3.5 inch down pipes, 4" charge pipes, a 5 inch intercooler with big tanks and the 2 inch exhaust manifold pipes with a 3.5 inch collector...

I wish I had better research info but I only have dyno results...
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:25 PM   #11
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We use stock manifolds on a lot of the builds but we do offer tubular manifolds or shorties on some of the bigger builds.

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Old 12-23-2013, 07:39 PM   #12
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Alright, so reading all of this I have a question. My car currently has a 418ci LS3, all forged lower end, 102mm intake and TB, and 9.6:1 CR. I'm pretty set on the AGP TT setup in the coming months, and I'm looking to push 16-18# of boost on it. My question....with my larger displacement and lower CR, and the boost level I want to run, would shorties/turbo manifolds be worthwhile for me over the stock manifolds? I'm not looking for your power, SSE, but with higher displacement and boost, I don't want to choke the system either.
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:40 PM   #13
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We use stock manifolds on a lot of the builds but we do offer tubular manifolds or shorties on some of the bigger builds.

How much would a set of these run me? And can you build them to mate to the AGP turbo kit?
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:43 PM   #14
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How much would a set of these run me? And can you build them to mate to the AGP turbo kit?
These fit our turbo kits, and from what I have seen in pictures these will not work with an AGP kit. It would not be worth using theses with AGP's small turbos.
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