Who has done Torq's Innercooler Pump Upgrade?

[Blue70SS]

Originally Posted by Rat

Garth it's on the TBSS with the ice box tank. Im moving everything up front.

Thanks

Did you ever figure out a wheel solution to get the COPO on the dyno?

[ayousef]

Originally Posted by Nitroman28

For Drag Racing a PowerGlide and Solid axle is better.

I know and that was exactly my point, dont use parts that work on a drag race only car as an excuse to use it on your street car, that was Torq's argument on the subject.

[ayousef]

Originally Posted by Blue70SS

19.5-21 and IAT sensor relocated for real #s and tables adjusted to pull timing. I mix 91 and 100 50/50 for racing as a safety buffer - not tuned for the extra octane. Compression was lowered to 9.67:1 Looking to do dual octane tunes once I finish some other changes and stop messing with stuff. No meth Lost 4 degrees at Lucas Speedway due to IATs, small coolant tank, and I believe not enough coolant flow.

We never asked the real question, how high do your inlet temps get to? Is there any chance you could exchange the pump for the 20gpm meziere? I think that would work the best on a street car, especially since you have the larger resevoir and HEX up front.

With that much timing you could still run a little more boost thats for sure, also how much timing you pull vs inlet temps is something you tailor to the way your vehicle responds, honestly I have my truck pull 0.5 degrees of timing for every 5 degrees CELCIUS rise in inlet air temps, I then do alot of testing and adjust the main spark tables until I get the slightest hint of knock retard and back off, I do high speed runs and repeat on different days and on a different tank of gas just to "double check"

I could tell ive been lucky driving even in the most intense summers of Dubai.

[STSL]

You would do alot for your self if you milled the heads and got your cr up .If your CR was higher you wouldnt have to spin your blower so hard to make the HP number your after.Slower blower = Lower IAT

[swiftkart]

Originally Posted by Street Slayer

You would do alot for your self if you milled the heads and got your cr up .If your CR was higher you wouldnt have to spin your blower so hard to make the HP number your after.Slower blower = Lower IAT

[Meister@Torq]

Originally Posted by ayousef

I dont care what they say 55gpm is BAD, I read a HUGE article on that. Now the argument that the drag mustangs use it is also full of sh*t, thats like saying hey the COPO camaro uses a 2 speed transmission and a solid rear axle, lets drop one in all out cars they must be better!

Yes 55gpm pumps are better for drag cars with huge volume resevoirs filled with ice, that keeps the intercooler sitting under the blower happy, but not on a street car, UNLESS you have:

1- huge front heat exchanger

2- huge blower intercooler

3- huge volume fluid resevoir

4- high speed pump

if you have all of those then using a big pump is a good idea, otherwise im some situations SLOWING down the pump gives better intake air temp reduction. Remember for a given size of heat exchanger and the speed at which ambient air is travelling across the HEX, the water will inevitably have to spend "x" amount of time to be efficiently cooled, then "x" amount of time at the intercooler to absorb the heat out of the air.

Meziere 20gpm pump is the most id go on a street car, and is also the pump im going with, but saying that I have a huge intercooler on the 4.0 blower, and a huge heat exchanger, and large intercooler fluid resevoir to match.

PS. a large pump will heat up the fluid quite a bit (think large fuel pumps) and be very noisy.

Pic of HEX:

The 55GPM pump DOES NOT FLOW 55GPM in the closed system when going through a 5/8 or 3/4 hose, through the heat exchanger and through the intercooler core below the blower. Please do your testing before you crap on our products and extensive testing we have done.

We have TESTED these on STREET CARS in STREET trim and have had a nice drop in temperature and a SIGNIFICANT increase in cooling recovery time.

We have bench tested the COMPLETE system to determine flow rates of the pumps, what works, what does not work, what different voltages of pumps do as well.

If you have the fluid moving too quickly through the system it will not have enough time to remove the heat from the intercooler system

Put a pump rated at 20GPM pump on your car and let me know what it actually flows and how it works. Appreciate the feedback

[ayousef]

Originally Posted by Meister@Torq

The 55GPM pump DOES NOT FLOW 55GPM in the closed system when going through a 5/8 or 3/4 hose, through the heat exchanger and through the intercooler core below the blower. Please do your testing before you crap on our products and extensive testing we have done.

We have TESTED these on STREET CARS in STREET trim and have had a nice drop in temperature and a SIGNIFICANT increase in cooling recovery time.

We have bench tested the COMPLETE system to determine flow rates of the pumps, what works, what does not work, what different voltages of pumps do as well.

If you have the fluid moving too quickly through the system it will not have enough time to remove the heat from the intercooler system

Put a pump rated at 20GPM pump on your car and let me know what it actually flows and how it works. Appreciate the feedback

Wait wait wait, taking a crap on your product? Isnt your "product" a Meziere 55gpm pump? I think the pump is a great pump when used in the correct application. Why isnt everyone using it on their street car, did you benchmark it against the 20gpm pump as well?

Now, when we compare pumps we compare their FREE flow rates and not their rates in a closed loop system, the Bosch pump on the common blower kits flows 6gpm open, and I think the ZR1 flows the same. The 20gpm and 55gpm are also free flow numbers SO WHY should be compare the closed loop restricted flow of a 55gpm pump with the open flow numbers of a 6gpm Bosch pump?? Comparing apples to oranges here or what?

Now, why dont you tell us more about your extensive testing and maybe we will buy your argument, the only argument you have in your other thread is "Hey Ford uses it on their Cobra Jet drag car, so it must be good!!" nice extensive testing and argument.

I dont care what the 20gpm pump flows at with the system closed. All I know is I put big enough intercooler pipes, I literally have a HUGE heat exchanger, and a HUGE intercooler on my Whipple 4.0 blower with a reasonably sized intercooler fluid resevoir tank to keep things happy. Plus people at the power level im getting to are even getting away with the measly 6gpm pumps with not too bad results, the 20gpm pump is much quiter, has a longer life and does not have the tendency to heat up the fluid.

Again, 55gpm pumps are for drag cars or cars with HUGE resevoir tanks and ice boxes and just to make things clear I have nothing against YOU or the product.

[Meister@Torq]

We did not make the argument that "Ford uses it, so we should as well". We made this comment as aa testament to the quality and durability of the pump. Re: The CobraJet, that vehicle uses the same size HX as we do and uses a smaller (factory) GT500 reservoir. Ford Racing selected the 55GPM pump because with 3/4" hoses it flows considerably less (it flows 11GPM through their HX).

Please have Whipple or another blower manufacturer answer what ideal water flow is required to cool the air charge and I can bet it is more than 6GPM. We have experimented with different intercooler cores and know we require approx. 15-20GPM and the stock one requires about 9-12.

If you take a 20GPM pump, attach a heat exchanger to it the flow will not be 20GPM.

We have data to back up the increase in recovery times and the drop in temperature as well.

[Blue70SS]

From a senior member, posted 3/24/12 post #25
http://www.modularfords.com/threads/...-upgrade/page3


First off you can’t move water through the system too fast. The intercooler (IC) core is the restriction. It determines ultimately how fast the water can move. I’ve talked to engineers at Meziere, Griffin Radiators and Bell intercoolers at length about it and they both said the same thing. You can’t move too much water…..period.

One thing that has not been taken into account by people saying that the 20gpm and/or 55gpm pump is not an improvement is the heat soak in the heat exchanger (HE). I have my HE set up to data log HE temps, not just IAT’s. When you log just Intake Air Temps (IAT’s) you are only getting half the story and can’t draw a good conclusion.

Here is how pump size effects the ENTIRE system:

Stock pump:

If you are running a “stock” pump (GT500, Bosch, Lightning, etc) you are pulling a limited amount of heat out of the intercooler (IC). Not as much heat as you can, just as much as the flow of water will transfer with that pump (more on that later). Lets call that amount of heat “X”. Now that you have pulled X heat from the IC you send it to the HE. A large HE like the Afco or Raven is capable of shedding X heat or a little more. So, X heat is introduced to the HE, it cools it down to an acceptable temp and that is sent back to the IC (somewhere in there is the “overflow” but that is irrelevant when it comes to cooling) where it picks up more heat, wash, rinse repeat.

So when you are running a stock pump and a decent size HE the limiting factor is how much heat is pulled from the intercooler. Every time the water is run through the HE it sheds the heat that was picked up in the IC. Limiting factor…….the heat pulled from the IC. In a situation where you change to a larger HE you get an improvement because you now have the ability to shed the heat being pulled out of IC where the smaller (stock) HE couldn’t.

Big pumps:

If you are running a big pump you pull more heat (for fun lets call it 3X….three times as much heat) out of the IC than a stock pump does. What this does is put more heat into the HE. If the HE is not large enough to shed 3X worth of heat the HE begins to heat soak. When the HE heat soaks the water returning from it to the IC is hotter and the next time through it will not cool the IAT’s as much. Do this cycle a few times and you get a heat soaked HE and IAT’s that are limited by the size of the HE.

When running a large pump and a undersized HE you will not see a big improvement (except for the first “cold” hit of the gas) because you are now limited by the size of the HE.

One improvement that is hard to “see” is that big pumps eliminate vaporizing the water in the IC though. If you do not move the water through the IC fast enough it will vaporize. This is what was happening when the Cobra Jet was first on the dyno and prompted Ford Motorsports (FM) to start using the 55gpm pump. The only reason I know this is my tuner did the tuning/setup of the Cobra Jet with FM at his shop and told me all about it.

My car has a temp sender that I can log/display in the discharge port (post cooling) of my HE. This is how I was able to see what was actually happening when going with a larger pump. When I went with a larger pump (55 vs. 20) I was quickly able to overwhelm my HE because it was pulling so much more heat out of the IC. I was never able to data log with the stock pump. But I have done a whole bunch of 20gpm vs. 55gpm stuff. Considering the law of diminishing returns it is easy to make the argument that the improvement from the stock pump to the 20gpm pump is as much if not more than the 20-55.

The 55gpm pump overwhelmed the HE MUCH, MUCH, MUCH faster than the 20gpm pump did.

So there you go. You will only see the advantages (aside from vaporizing water) of a larger pump if you have a HE that can shed the extra heat it pulls from the IC. The currently available HE’s are large enough to shed the heat transferred by stock pumps. They are not on the other hand large enough to shed the heat transferred by the larger pumps. Hence the perceived lack of improvement of switching to a larger pump.

As with most things it has to work as a system. And a system is only as strong as its weakest link:

When running a stock HE and Stock pump the weak link is the HE.

When running a large HE and a stock pump the weak link is the pump.

When running a large HE (currently available) and a large pump the weak link is the HE (weak link is the IC - I THINK "HE" IS A TYPO)

The above is why we have our setup designed as a system. Big pumps and big enough HE’s to shed the heat. A balanced system.

One last caveat. When running a drag car with a “ice chest” or something like it in the trunk the size of the HE is no longer an issue (if there even is a HE). The water is going to be COLD! Everyone I know running an ice chest in a drag car (and I know a lot of them) is running very large pumps because they work. They all started off with small pumps and now all of them are running large ones. I know of a few cars that go through the traps with IAT’s BELOW outside air temps! The lesson here is that if you can feed the IC cool water, the more you can feed it the better. And for that you need a big pump.

[blufin]

Years ago I saw a Subaru(I think) that had a nitrous coil mounted to the face of the HE. The guy said under WOT, the window switch activated to spray a fine mist across the HE and greatly increase the effectiveness of the HE. Does this sound like a possibility with the 5th Gen? Strictly for drag racing purposes, of course.

[Supercharged SS]

Originally Posted by blufin

Years ago I saw a Subaru(I think) that had a nitrous coil mounted to the face of the HE. The guy said under WOT, the window switch activated to spray a fine mist across the HE and greatly increase the effectiveness of the HE. Does this sound like a possibility with the 5th Gen? Strictly for drag racing purposes, of course.

What about this?

http://m.summitracing.com/search?key...lbrovk%2070072

There are a few different brands. This one is the first one that popped up.

[Supercharged SS]

This is the one I was looking at a few years ago. Ted said it wouldn't work so I dropped it.


http://designengineering.com/categor...er-sprayer-kit

[blufin]

Originally Posted by Supercharged SS

This is the one I was looking at a few years ago. Ted said it wouldn't work so I dropped it.


http://designengineering.com/categor...er-sprayer-kit

Yep, that's the one. I never thought of co2 but it makes sense. It seems like it would work, but at your level, and already running an ice chest, it is probably pointless. Who wants to be the first one to try this on a 5th Gen?

[Blue70SS]

Originally Posted by blufin

Yep, that's the one. I never thought of co2 but it makes sense. It seems like it would work, but at your level, and already running an ice chest, it is probably pointless. Who wants to be the first one to try this on a 5th Gen?

Interesting concept - I vote you get one and test it for us. Tell them you want a huge discount to possibly break into the 5th Gen Camaro racing market