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View Poll Results: Your guess for the Z28 LSA HP rating
Less than 556 HP 95 13.63%
556 HP 159 22.81%
More than 556 HP 386 55.38%
We don't even know if the LSA is going to be in the Z28! Stupid question! 57 8.18%
Voters: 697. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-08-2011, 08:48 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by mr02Z/28 View Post
I will guess the 2012 Z/28 will be 500-525hp(just a thought)..And if the 2012 Z/28 is going to be over 575hp I am going to cringe at what GM/Chevy will be asking price wise for this ride..I am going out on a limb and say it will be priced around the 2011 CTS-V.. I can bet GM knows that the 2012 Z/28 will be in demand, so I'm sure prices will reflect it..I just hate to see a Camaro going to be priced out of range of most folks,boo-hoo...
1. The Z/28s benchmark is the GT500, so it is going to need more than 550 hp to get the same numbers the GT500 does due to the Camaros weight disadvantage.

2. There is no way that the Z/28 will be priced the same as a CTS-V. You are not just paying for the engine in a V, you are also paying for a luxury car with luxury amenities.

I say the Camaro will have around 575 hp and will have a starting price of $52,995.
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:02 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by SS-screamer View Post
Picture of the motor in the test car looks closer to the LS-9 intercooler than the LSA despite its label.

It is an LSA in the test car with a redesigned intercooler lid to fit under the Camaro's cowl. Note the angle of the throttle body in relation to the LS9.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:14 PM   #115
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There is a ton of good stuff to search in here...This what it took "Uncle Robin" Lawrence to run 10's

• GMPP CTS-V LSA Crate engine
• Kooks headers and full exhaust system
• Lunati cam
• GMPP CNC cylinder heads
• Performance Transmissions 4L80E transmission
• ProTorque converter with 4000 RPM stall
• Lingenfelter pulley system, 63-pound injectors, fuel pump, blower coupler, and intercooler
• ATI balancer with 10% overdrive
• Bosch intercooler pump
• 100% stock rearend
• One piece Jerry Bickel-built driveshaft
• Stock starter
• Abaco Mass air meter
• Mickey Thompson 305/45/18 ET Drag Radial tires
• VP 100 unleaded fuel
• Tuned with HP Tuners tuning software
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:08 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
I think most muscle car guys preffer a broad torque range over high spooling turbos. Its all in the launch, if it doesnt snap your neck off the line and make all kinds of evil noises doing so then i dont want to buy it. And evil noises dont consist of wind-tunnel testing LOL. I dont really care about the top-end of my car because 99.9% of the time its not gonna be on a track, its gonna be launching from a stop light, and by the time i hit 80mph i'll be at another stop light, so i want to be able to smash that GT from light to light, not match it.
Besides isnt there already a TT Taurus? Does it use the same transmission? That might be why it was designed like that, just for the Taurus with no intention of using TT in a Mustang.
Both Twin Turbos and Superchargers create more peak HP/TQ than anything, traditionally, S/Cs peak much lower than Turbos. From idle to 4500rpm S/Cs have a nice HP curve, Turbos pick up at 3500 all the way to the engines ceiling. When MPGs are concerned, as long as you operate a Turbo under the spool, its almost like driving a regular V8 (what some people call turbo lag) and fuel mileage will reflect that kind of driving. S/Cs are constantly pulling, even at idle.. This is also why S/Cs become heat soaked quickly and lose power after extended use. For drag racing, a cool down is required between races to maximize power.

In 3-4 years, I'm not sure either of these cars will be labeled "Muscle Cars" or "Pony Cars". The term "Sports Coupe" is known the world over and if either of these companies intend on selling a performance vehicle in other parts of the world.. They will ditch that stereotype..

The SHO Taurus Twin Turbo 3.5l V6 has nothing in common with the 5.0 V8. Seeing a Twin Turbo on a V6 tells me that a TT version of a I4 and V8 are coming soon. With the 20% better MPG and 15% lower emissions a Single/Twin Turbo produces with Direct Injection makes it an automatic winner... add in the lower weight, better weight distribution at the same cost....

Besides, who wants a 20th Anniversary SVT Cobra that whines when you can give it Turbos and make it hiss?
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:22 PM   #117
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I can see around 590hp in the z28... Can't have as much or more than the ZR1 but its gotta have more than the CTS-V
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:38 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorRyanSS View Post
2. There is no way that the Z/28 will be priced the same as a CTS-V. You are not just paying for the engine in a V, you are also paying for a luxury car with luxury amenities.

I say the Camaro will have around 575 hp and will have a starting price of $52,995.
Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
Both Twin Turbos and Superchargers create more peak HP/TQ than anything, traditionally, S/Cs peak much lower than Turbos. From idle to 4500rpm S/Cs have a nice HP curve, Turbos pick up at 3500 all the way to the engines ceiling. When MPGs are concerned, as long as you operate a Turbo under the spool, its almost like driving a regular V8 (what some people call turbo lag) and fuel mileage will reflect that kind of driving. S/Cs are constantly pulling, even at idle..
That's not quite accurate anymore, especially not with the twin-screw/hybrid roots superchargers companies are selling. Most come with a bypass valve nearly 'detaching' the unit from the engine. You'd use up more hp by turning on your lights at idle. I know at least Magnuson (who uses the same TVS rotors as GM) claims their units pull less than 1/3 hp from idle to part-throttle 2000 rpms.

And they keep boosting to redline, just like turbos. But Turbochargers, just by their nature will almost always produce more torque pound for pound of pressure compared to superchargers.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:58 PM   #119
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Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...
I do not see it being any lower than 50K. The GT500 starts just under 49K. And I do not see them putting over 600 hp, but I guess we shall see soon
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:08 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by WhiteKnight10 View Post
I can see around 590hp in the z28... Can't have as much or more than the ZR1 but its gotta have more than the CTS-V
Why...that doesn't make any sense at all...You seriously think GM is going to sell a Camaro for around $50K that has 590 HP, compared to a CTS-V for around $63K that only has 556 HP...come on, man.

Another thing, the fricking CTS-V Coupe already beats the GT500 in straightline acceleration tests and has faster lap times around certain tracks (see Road & Track this month). If the Caddy can do that with 4238 lbs, then the Camaro Z/28 (with great tires, improved suspension, etc.) ought to be able to do that with its relatively svelt sub 4000 lbs.

P.S. I know it's not only about HP, but even though the CTS-V commands a higher price tag because of its luxury amenities (and VASTLY superior interior), people will not really be happy to pay $13K more for a slower car. Cadillac is GM's halo brand, and there needs to be a multitude of reasons to entice people to spend tens of thousands of dollars more for a Cadillac, over a similar Chevrolet (having the Caddy be the clear loser in the performance dept. is most definitely not the way to do that).
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:37 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...


That's not quite accurate anymore, especially not with the twin-screw/hybrid roots superchargers companies are selling. Most come with a bypass valve nearly 'detaching' the unit from the engine. You'd use up more hp by turning on your lights at idle. I know at least Magnuson (who uses the same TVS rotors as GM) claims their units pull less than 1/3 hp from idle to part-throttle 2000 rpms.

And they keep boosting to redline, just like turbos. But Turbochargers, just by their nature will almost always produce more torque pound for pound of pressure compared to superchargers.
I also see superchargers with advanced cooling configurations to combat heat soak for road duty, or at least making an effort to do so. Dual brick intercoolers and a heat extracting hood really help, especially at moderate to high speeds.

I guess the best way to duplicate the Turbo's emissions and MPG is to engineer an S/C to do exactly what you explained above. Just as long as it doesn't affect the beautiful HP/TQ low end curve, that is something a Turbo cannot duplicate from the S/C.

They could take a page from the diesel's book and Twin Charge an engine (Super and Twin Turbo) but say good bye to your fuel mileage. Performance wise, it is very effective... but without diesel, gasoline won't see any advantages other than high output and a nearly flat curve.

Maybe bypass the Supercharger at a higher RPM when the Turbos are in full spool. Using the Supercharger to spool the Turbos, eliminating any lag the Turbos have and relieving the S/C at higher RPM for cooling... but who would attempt to engineer that monster... With 8:1 compression pistons, an extra 200+ lbs, two separate heat exchangers and a whine and hiss... might not be worth it but it would be neat to see on a gas engine.

either way, good info on the S/C bypass... something I can look into tonight.
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:27 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
Why...that doesn't make any sense at all...You seriously think GM is going to sell a Camaro for around $50K that has 590 HP, compared to a CTS-V for around $63K that only has 556 HP...come on, man.

Another thing, the fricking CTS-V Coupe already beats the GT500 in straightline acceleration tests and has faster lap times around certain tracks (see Road & Track this month). If the Caddy can do that with 4238 lbs, then the Camaro Z/28 (with great tires, improved suspension, etc.) ought to be able to do that with its relatively svelt sub 4000 lbs.

P.S. I know it's not only about HP, but even though the CTS-V commands a higher price tag because of its luxury amenities (and VASTLY superior interior), people will not really be happy to pay $13K more for a slower car. Cadillac is GM's halo brand, and there needs to be a multitude of reasons to entice people to spend tens of thousands of dollars more for a Cadillac, over a similar Chevrolet (having the Caddy be the clear loser in the performance dept. is most definitely not the way to do that).
I think they will. CTS-V is catered to the more affluent crowd who'd like as much luxury with their performance car as much as they want the actual performance. I completely believe they are for two different markets and feel there is a distinguishable difference. Personally, I'd walk right be CTS-V for Z28 if I had the money, because that's just how I am. I don't really think GM is going to shoot to steal many sales from competitors - I'm thinking Z28 will be for the CAMARO-guys and gals out there. Of course - I want them to sell as many CAMAROs as they can, so I won't be disappointed if they shoot for as many people as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
I also see superchargers with advanced cooling configurations to combat heat soak for road duty, or at least making an effort to do so. Dual brick intercoolers and a heat extracting hood really help, especially at moderate to high speeds.

I guess the best way to duplicate the Turbo's emissions and MPG is to engineer an S/C to do exactly what you explained above. Just as long as it doesn't affect the beautiful HP/TQ low end curve, that is something a Turbo cannot duplicate from the S/C.

They could take a page from the diesel's book and Twin Charge an engine (Super and Twin Turbo) but say good bye to your fuel mileage. Performance wise, it is very effective... but without diesel, gasoline won't see any advantages other than high output and a nearly flat curve.

Maybe bypass the Supercharger at a higher RPM when the Turbos are in full spool. Using the Supercharger to spool the Turbos, eliminating any lag the Turbos have and relieving the S/C at higher RPM for cooling... but who would attempt to engineer that monster... With 8:1 compression pistons, an extra 200+ lbs, two separate heat exchangers and a whine and hiss... might not be worth it but it would be neat to see on a gas engine.

either way, good info on the S/C bypass... something I can look into tonight.

I believe KB integrates their by-pass valve into a sort of "valet"-type mode, so you can manually control the boost so the undesirables who might have access to the car won't have full access to the power. I don't know about the Whipple and I don't know if Maggies feature a manual-type feature either.
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:46 PM   #123
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I think they will. CTS-V is catered to the more affluent crowd who'd like as much luxury with their performance car as much as they want the actual performance. I completely believe they are for two different markets and feel there is a distinguishable difference.
I have to respectfully disagree. I own a 1st Gen CTS-V, and have been involved with and around the V community for the last 6 years (since my car was new in 2004), and the truth of the matter is that a large portion of 2nd Gen CTS-V owners are guys who have simply stepped up from the 1st Gen. Every V owner that I know, or have had dealings with, values performance above all else while having a car that is infinitely more usable than a pure 2 seater, like a Corvette.

If the fellas only wanted luxury with a little performance sprinkled in, they would simply by a CTS (same amount of luxury, less performance than the V-series). Nope, they want the top of the line, American, ultra-high performance luxury sedan. The fastest American sedan, and the second fastest production sedan in the world (second only to the Porsche Panamera, I believe).

I think GM won't let the Z/28 dominate the V, because if it did, then nobody would ever want to buy the CTS-V Coupe, which would only be differentiated from the Z/28 by different sheet metal, a nicer interior, and inferior performance numbers (I know there will obviously be a host of other differences, but to just break it down to the basics that a lay person would see).

There aren't very many enthusiasts out there who would be willing to pay the extra $13K for more luxury only, with no other differentiating factors over other GM products.

P.S. If you aren't sure about how serious GM and Cadillac are about top shelf performance for it's V-series cars, check out www.world-challenge.com and take a gander at the new CTS-V Coupe Racecar. It is beautiful, and will be a class dominator. I don't see GM and Chevrolet officially factory sponsoring and/or campaigning Camaros.

Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...because a bunch of bench racers "think" that the new Z/28 is going to "need" that extra power to safely whoop the piss out of the GT500? There are videos and magazine articles out there that have already immortalized the fact that the current CTS-V Coupe can beat the GT500 in a variety of situations. A Camaro Z/28 that has very similar specs to the V (meaning exact same HP rating, among other things), but weighs 200-250 lbs less, will absolutely beat the GT500 in every situation -- and that isn't opinion, that is physics, pure and simple.
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:51 PM   #124
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If the z28 is a better performer than the V (which I think it will be), I do not think that will take sales away from cadillac. One is a sports car and one is a luxury car... regardless of the power.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:07 PM   #125
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If the z28 is a better performer than the V (which I think it will be), I do not think that will take sales away from cadillac. One is a sports car and one is a luxury car... regardless of the power.
I agree with you for the most part. And I even believe that for sure the Z/28 will outperform the V in every measurable performance test, but what I am saying is a lot of people only see HP numbers and other marketing stuff when deciding which car to buy.

If you are someone who can afford a $50K Camaro (which will be a toy for most), then you can also probably afford a V, and you could very well cross-shop the two models. If you look at the spec sheet and see 590 HP/ $50K, and then look at the other spec sheet and see 556 HP/ $63K, I can pretty much tell you what choice most people are going to make (this would be a bad business decision for GM, as they would have a ton of CTS-Vs gathering dust on car lots across the U.S.). That is why I believe the HP ratings will be almost the same between the two models (+/- 10 HP), but the Z/28 will slightly edge out the V on all the performance metrics.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:34 PM   #126
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Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...because a bunch of bench racers "think" that the new Z/28 is going to "need" that extra power to safely whoop the piss out of the GT500? There are videos and magazine articles out there that have already immortalized the fact that the current CTS-V Coupe can beat the GT500 in a variety of situations. A Camaro Z/28 that has very similar specs to the V (meaning exact same HP rating, among other things), but weighs 200-250 lbs less, will absolutely beat the GT500 in every situation -- and that isn't opinion, that is physics, pure and simple.
If GM only wanted to beat the Mustang when the 2010 Camaro came out, the base engine would probably have been the non-DI 3.6L and the SS would have gotten the L76. They'd beat their respective Mustangs, by a little, and everyone would probably be happy ... until the 2011 Mustangs came out that is. Trying to simply be competitive with the current cars led to complacency and mediocrity. No, mood is different now. Benchmark where your competition is right now, and expect that they'll step it up in a couple years. Then aim to compete with the updated models. Worst case scenario, you'll be a little behind (after having a big lead for a year or two). Or better yet, you'll catch the other guy with his pants down and be way ahead in the game.

And to think that Ford isn't going to work on the GT500 would be foolish. In 2009 it had 500 hp. In 2010 it was upped to 540. For 2011 it was bumped another 10 hp, but the car also lost a lot of weight by switching from an iron block to aluminum. And all that was without having a real competitor on the market. I can't imagine that they'll stop there once the Z28 hits the streets.

In the end, it becomes a question of whats more important to GM: making sure the 2013 GT500 won't embarrass them, or worrying about the impact the Z28 has on CTS-V (or Corvette) sales?
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