Sanity Check on Turbo build

[trashbasket]

I am trying to figure out if I'm just killing street tires or something is wrong/inaccurate. Car made 810 HP, 827 TQ on a dynojet at 14 lbs. Here is the problem though. The car is..... slow. I trapped 91 in 1/8th mile at a terrible time. This was my 2nd ever pass and on street tires, so absolutely spinning there. 60-130 times are rough too, starting out in 2nd breaks tires loose and lose time on shift, so roll in on 3rd at 50 mph, get eat up by turbo lag then run a best of 6.82 slightly downhill. Most runs avg 7.5 seconds. 100-150 is 6.08 seconds. Fastest 0-60 I've ever cut is 4.95, again with spin. Here is the quick build info.

Forged 376 w/ LSX block
Stock Heads
TSP Stage 1 Turbo Cam
AGP Turbo base kit
850ID ZL1 pump+BAP+meth
Twin Disc(Kevlar) Monster clutch
Tick Level 3 TR6060
Stock Diff (this is being changed to ZL1 3.23 when driveshaft arrives)
Renegade Axles
Detroit Speed Solid Cradle bushings
UMI Toe/Trailing Arms
FE4 swap w/ BMR Sway bar


other stuff I'm probably leaving out(feel like I could go on and on), just wanted to illustrate I didn't put a ton of power to stock suspension in the rear.


Tires out back are Conti extreme pro 315/35R20




I've probably answered my own question here and just need to put the zl1 diff in and get a sticky tire and see for myself. I guess I'm just trying to gauge what the car SHOULD be doing from your guys experience. I also want to say thank you, this forum has been a well of knowledge for me during this build and has helped out so much. Any advice here is appreciated even if its just "get better tires dummy". If that is simply the case, what should the car be doing in 1/8th and 60-130?

[trashbasket]

656 was at 8lbs
810 was at 14lbs

[acammer]

You're never going to get that kind of tire to hook that kind of power. I think you answered your own question. Put it on a quality drag radial setup and it's gonna be worlds different.

Drag strip times will be highly variable based on so many other factors, but you're down at least 20mph in the 1/8th, that kind of power should trap 110 or better in the 1/8th if the car will 60' and you can make the gear changes.

[AGP Turbo]

Launching a M/T turbo car is a skill that will take lots of practice. Invest in some electronics to help you make it consistent and adjustable. Start with a Lingenfelter LNC-2000 and you'll need the clutch tap from them.
https://www.lingenfelter.com/product...l#.ZDjJLnbMLiA

Start at about 4500rpm and full 15* timing retard.

That and tires is just step one, but a really big step.

[trashbasket]

Thanks guys. Ill have the ZL1 diff in soon and put some DRs on. I will also look into the LNC-2000. Yall haven't steered me wrong yet. As always I appreciate it.

[dreksnot]

Ah, the days of 800whp... The LPE is good. I do like a combo 2-step/WOT box as it will allow shifting with the throttle wide open and you won't loose much boost during shifts.

Wait to install sticker tires until AFTER the ZL1 diff install else you're going to be destroying the stock diff. You did get new axles too, right (SS ones won't fit ZL1)?

If you're really planning on drag racing, don't do DR - go bias ply. The M/T Street E/T R bias are plenty good. The benefit of bias that I've found is that they recover if you spin them. The radials never did that and if I toasted them off the line, the run was a bust. If I spun the bias, they'd just heat more and then dig making for a much better run.

[CamaroCracka]

I could not get Hoosier DRs to hook, so I went to slicks. Promptly broke a ZL1 axle and had to get some GForces.

[trashbasket]

Originally Posted by dreksnot

Ah, the days of 800whp... The LPE is good. I do like a combo 2-step/WOT box as it will allow shifting with the throttle wide open and you won't loose much boost during shifts.

Def gonna look into this and yea I want that 4 digit power number you rocking, but if I can't use 800 I damn sure cant use 1xxx.

Originally Posted by dreksnot

Wait to install sticker tires until AFTER the ZL1 diff install else you're going to be destroying the stock diff. You did get new axles too, right (SS ones won't fit ZL1)?

Yea, thats what was stopping me. Watched a buddy pop his diff running slicks at 650hp and ofcourse paying attention to all the posts here. Yessir on the axles and driveshaft from driveshaft shop. I'm waiting on axle nuts of all things.

Originally Posted by dreksnot

If you're really planning on drag racing, don't do DR - go bias ply. The M/T Street E/T R bias are plenty good. The benefit of bias that I've found is that they recover if you spin them. The radials never did that and if I toasted them off the line, the run was a bust. If I spun the bias, they'd just heat more and then dig making for a much better run.

This is really good to know. I was just gonna throw nitto DRs on and hope for the best. But I need to do it the right way and find some 17s that will fit and get a proper tire.

Originally Posted by CamaroCracka

I could not get Hoosier DRs to hook, so I went to slicks. Promptly broke a ZL1 axle and had to get some GForces.

Please do not tell me sh** like this bro...Im tired of breaking things. Axles and then the mainshaft on the TR6060...5 months I waited on that rebuild cracked cylinders in stock LS3 block after that....building this car has been a journey, but you guys know exactly what Im talking about there.

[CamaroCracka]

Originally Posted by trashbasket

Please do not tell me sh** like this bro...Im tired of breaking things. Axles and then the mainshaft on the TR6060...5 months I waited on that rebuild cracked cylinders in stock LS3 block after that....building this car has been a journey, but you guys know exactly what Im talking about there.

Right now I'm looking into the Clutch Tamer. It allows you to dial in your clutch slip off the line and reduces drivetrain shock. I'm thinking it might be a good solution rather than trying to find the magic spot where you can dump the clutch and it takes off rather than spin or bog.

[dreksnot]

Originally Posted by CamaroCracka

Right now I'm looking into the Clutch Tamer. It allows you to dial in your clutch slip off the line and reduces drivetrain shock. I'm thinking it might be a good solution rather than trying to find the magic spot where you can dump the clutch and it takes off rather than spin or bog.

I've got a BangShift Billy Digital Clutch Controller (clutch slipper) installed but haven't had the time to play with it yet. Is it snake oil or the silver bullet??? Hopefully I can test it out soon enough but on the street first with slippery tires. Principle-wise, the theory is great. Thoughts are that the setting adjustments will greatly depend on strip prep and consistent tire warm-up, and mostly clutch as it wears. But the adjustments are very easy, and I mean easy to adjust on your Bluetooth connected cell phone to the electronic controller. We shall see...

[CamaroCracka]

The Clutch Tamer is pretty basic too. A shock is connected to the clutch pedal and you can adjust where it starts to slow the release and how quick the release is once it starts. I'm a little worried about how it will affect the 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 shifts, but either solution has to be better than me trying to feel how much slip I'm giving it. I don't get to the track enough to stay practiced and now that Palm Beach is closed, you are lucky to get three runs in at OSW before it's time to head home. I've tried dumping the clutch with slicks and the nitrous on twice and both times something broke, so it would be nice to take some shock out of the driveline. I can't imagine trying to control 1000+ with a manual. Now I know why guys do the TH400 swap.

[dreksnot]

Originally Posted by CamaroCracka

The Clutch Tamer is pretty basic too. A shock is connected to the clutch pedal and you can adjust where it starts to slow the release and how quick the release is once it starts. I'm a little worried about how it will affect the 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 shifts, but either solution has to be better than me trying to feel how much slip I'm giving it. I don't get to the track enough to stay practiced and now that Palm Beach is closed, you are lucky to get three runs in at OSW before it's time to head home. I've tried dumping the clutch with slicks and the nitrous on twice and both times something broke, so it would be nice to take some shock out of the driveline. I can't imagine trying to control 1000+ with a manual. Now I know why guys do the TH400 swap.

If you want to be fast - gotta go Auto. Some of us are just not bright enough to know better, like the challenge and abuse. I looked at that Tamer and didn't like the after 1st gear possible effects on shifting. When electronic (like this significantly more expensive BSB slipper), can have it only activated for 1st gear launch.

Dumping the clutch on these heavy behemoths is always a big gamble/risk challenging parts not to break. Easing out the clutch (slipping) seems to work best; too slow and got a smoky clutch cloud, too quick and can bog or spin. Those Auto guys have it so easy.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by trashbasket

I am trying to figure out if I'm just killing street tires or something is wrong/inaccurate. Car made 810 HP, 827 TQ on a dynojet at 14 lbs. Here is the problem though. The car is..... slow. I trapped 91 in 1/8th mile at a terrible time. This was my 2nd ever pass and on street tires, so absolutely spinning there. 60-130 times are rough too, starting out in 2nd breaks tires loose and lose time on shift, so roll in on 3rd at 50 mph, get eat up by turbo lag then run a best of 6.82 slightly downhill. Most runs avg 7.5 seconds. 100-150 is 6.08 seconds. Fastest 0-60 I've ever cut is 4.95, again with spin. Here is the quick build info.

Forged 376 w/ LSX block
Stock Heads
TSP Stage 1 Turbo Cam
AGP Turbo base kit
850ID ZL1 pump+BAP+meth
Twin Disc(Kevlar) Monster clutch
Tick Level 3 TR6060
Stock Diff (this is being changed to ZL1 3.23 when driveshaft arrives)
Renegade Axles
Detroit Speed Solid Cradle bushings
UMI Toe/Trailing Arms
FE4 swap w/ BMR Sway bar


other stuff I'm probably leaving out(feel like I could go on and on), just wanted to illustrate I didn't put a ton of power to stock suspension in the rear.


Tires out back are Conti extreme pro 315/35R20




I've probably answered my own question here and just need to put the zl1 diff in and get a sticky tire and see for myself.

I’m not in your power range, however… Something to bare in mind, when you go to taller gears, is you will be loading more power into the entire driveline. Tires breaking loose is less expensive than parts breaking. Ask me how I know…

If you are looking at 4 digit power levels in the near future, I highly recommend a center section stronger than the ZL1 piece, with corresponding gears, axles and differential… especially if you want to stay with the manual trans. Swapping to a shorter gear ratio will help, as opposed to the 3.23. At this point, a major factor is what kind of racing are you wanting to do… There’s a reason very few, VERY few cars are successful at multi-distances, such as… 1/8.. 1/4… 1/2… or the mile distances. Roll racing, 60-180 or 200 is roughly equal to the mile, though some achieve 60-200 in way way less distance than a mile…

Personally I prefer the 9 inch can, with a wavetrac diff sitting with a strange center section… There are a couple two or three choices for this…

Originally Posted by acammer

You're never going to get that kind of tire to hook that kind of power. I think you answered your own question.

This^^^^^

Originally Posted by AGP Turbo

Launching a M/T turbo car is a skill that will take lots of practice. Invest in some electronics to help you make it consistent and adjustable. Start with a Lingenfelter LNC-2000 and you'll need the clutch tap from them.

Start at about 4500rpm and full 15* timing retard.

That and tires is just step one, but a really big step.

The skill set requires many many many hard launches, with the corresponding wear and tear on the car…

Originally Posted by CamaroCracka

I could not get Hoosier DRs to hook, so I went to slicks. Promptly broke a ZL1 axle and had to get some GForces.

This…^^^^^

Originally Posted by dreksnot

Ah, the days of 800whp...

Wait to install sticker tires until AFTER the ZL1 diff install else you're going to be destroying the stock diff. You did get new axles too, right (SS ones won't fit ZL1)?

If you're really planning on drag racing, don't do DR - go bias ply. The M/T Street E/T R bias are plenty good. The benefit of bias that I've found is that they recover if you spin them. The radials never did that and if I toasted them off the line, the run was a bust. If I spun the bias, they'd just heat more and then dig making for a much better run.

I remember them days…

Again, my opinion, manual, your power, and a ZL1 diff is going to be sketchy… One good hook…

Good info on the bias tires to, though don’t plan on high speed runs for very long… unless they got a hella speed rating…

Originally Posted by dreksnot

If you want to be fast - gotta go Auto. Some of us are just not bright enough to know better, like the challenge and abuse.

Dumping the clutch on these heavy behemoths is always a big gamble/risk challenging parts not to break. Easing out the clutch (slipping) seems to work best; too slow and got a smoky clutch cloud, too quick and can bog or spin. Those Auto guys have it so easy.

Count me in the group not brite enough to go auto, but then again, no-one builds an auto that stands up to the weight of these cars combined with decent power… I saw a competitor rebuild his auto after every mile pass… Then some of the auto guys try to run the mile with quick gears (3.93, 4.10 etc) by running an Gear Vendors overdrive… I’ve seen a bunch of those chunked as well…

If you wanna go fast, 3.23, 3.07, or even 3.45’s will get you there with a beefy 6 speed trans… I have 6 gears but can only use 5 of them going forward, (1-5 are billet gears and all shafts are 300M material.) shifting into 6th under power makes a Big Bang and lots of shrapnel…

And as dreksnot mentions auto guys got it easy, I refer to them as point and shoot guys…Point it down track, whack it, hang on, lift, turn off… Psssshhhhh… to have it so easy… Why they even steer with both hands…

[acammer]

I love this thread - a bunch of stick shift idiots that refuse to go faster the easy way. My people!

If you guys aren't already, you should really be using the emergency brake to stage the car and put a little preload in the driveline. Taking the slack out of everything is a huge step forward in mitigating breakage. Whether you plan to do a slow release with a deliberate 0.5-1 second of clutch slip to dead hook a radial, or a quick (but still deliberate) release to let a bias ply do a little spinning - preloading the driveline will help with breakage, and help you be consistent by putting you right on the edge of the friction zone before you start your launch sequence.

If a picture is worth 1,000 words, then a video is probably worth a million. I've got a how-to that goes into how this works and the procedure I use at the track. Not the only way to get it done, but it's a reliable, consistent method that I've found that helps.



I also think some of the guys here were hitting on an important point - going with a lower final drive ratio is not a cure for making the car hook. It actually makes it harder to launch effectively, because it widens the gap between excessive wheelspin and bogging the car, meaning you need even more RPM and MORE slip to get the car to 60' it's best.

What I'm digging at here is Starting Line Ratio - SLR. Most people don't pay all that much attention to this, and focus mostly on gearing as it applies to how the car performs through the 1320' cones. That's absolutely a consideration as well, and ultimately gearing the car becomes a balancing act between desired SLR (and what ratio 1st gear the trans has) and then how much gear you do or don't need to make it out the back in 4th.

What is SLR? It's your first gear ratio multiplied by your rear gear ratio. In a stock SS car is 3.01x3.45=10.4 and in a ZL1 it's 2.66x3.73=9.9. In terms of "aggressiveness" these are both extremely mild SLRs. Below is a pretty good reference from Black Magic for recommended SLR based on weight/power and tire, on a well prepped track, and in a car that has very good suspension. It's leans on the aggressive side, but these guys are pros that support some of the fastest stick cars out there. I like to figure 70% of their recommended ratio is a pretty good spot to try to get to.

If we consider the original posts car, that's a 1,000hp car that probably weighs in around the 3900lbs mark with driver, and is on a 28" tire. 3900lbs is "off the chart" heavy, but if extrapolate out where that's going that would point to the desired SLR being somewhere around 18:1. To achieve something like that with your OEM TR6060 with M10 gearset you'd need like a 6:1 rear gear ratio, which is technically possible, but unrealistic. You still need the car to run out the back of the quarter in 4th gear. And so, if you approach the gearing from that perspective, figure you may see the car trap 140, call it 150 to buy yourself some headroom in the even you turn it up a little bit. 4.10s will take you to 142mph at 7000rpm, and with tire growth would actually be more like 150mph. That would bump the SLR up to 12.3 - which is still mild, but right about at that 70% of the recommended (per Black Magic chart) SLR. It will help close the gap between bog and excessive wheel spin, and reduce the amount of clutch slip the setup needs.

Now, I wouldn't recommend putting 4.10s in the factory SS rear end at that power level, it's just not going to hold up. And ZL1 rears are unfortunately limited to 3.23 and 3.73 ratios. If you gotta go ZL1, then the 3.73 is much closer to optimized than the 3.23 is (IMO). Better still would be an S60 or 9" with a better helical style diff and the ratio you need. Regardless of what you do, power management is going to be critical to get the best performance from your combination, and being able to soften the car in 1st (and maybe 2nd) gear is going give you more options. If you can get the car mellow enough to be consistent, then you can start bringing in the power quicker to get down to it's best performance.

Sorry for the long post - I hope it's useful information. It's stuff I wish I had stumbled into years ago, but there isn't much talk out there about stick shift drag racing. So, I try to "share the love" where I can, and ya'll seemed primed for it!