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Old 05-04-2012, 09:07 AM   #1
camarograna2
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My Awesome system causing TPMS issues

So as the title reads the dealership is claiming that my awesome audio system is the cause of a TPMS issue.

It all started around the 25th of April. Saw the service tire pressure monitoring system turn on my car and the driver rear side tire showed blank. So did the relearn, went away but would come back the same day so I booked an appt at my dealer. Friday 4/27 the dealer goes ahead and replaces the Left Rear and the Left Front tpms sensor. Same night issue comes up again with the LR tire. Next morning I did a relearn and it goes away but came back that same day. So 5/2 I'm back at dealer and the service guy immediately says it's my radio causing RF interference. So I call Kenwood on the spot and guess what? the radio doesn't output any RF signals. So he goes back and talks to the service manager and now his claim it's the GPS signal of my Navigation. To test out if that's the problem he wants me to disconnect my radio completely and let him keep it in the shop to monitor if it comes back on for about 2 weeks. Says the GM engineers are going to make him unplug the system so it has to be done. Problem is this thing doesn't turn on when I first turn on my car as it just randomly turns on afterwards. It's been anywhere from driving 5 minutes to 50 minutes at various driving speeds.

My installer has no issues unplugging it to show them it's not the issue so big ups to my installer again for not charging a dime. I don't have time this month to get this done as I have some trips planned so goal is to bring it in next month. So I'm building this thread because I didn't find anyone with my circumstance so hopefully it can help someone in the future.

Here is my audio install history
· Had my subs installed last year using the ******** harness and I also put sound deadening on the entire trunk.
· Upgraded my front speakers, sound deadened the door and all rear panels. Installed Scosche with Kenwood 9980 on 2/20
· Receive my new Kenwood 9990 and had it installed 4/14. Installer also attempted to update the dash kits firmware
· TPMS issue started 4/15
· Installer tries to troubleshoot issue. Mentions his dad (a service teach for another gm dealership) recommended the replacement of the dash kit and nav to the factory stario since he doesnt fell removing the nav will do any good for troubleshooting. Installer also attempts to update firmware again since apparently what he thought was successful 4/15 was not the case. Firmware says succesfully update but kit dies. Warranty exchange submitted and sent product back to scosche for new dash kit 5/23
· Drove all day 5/23 and no issues with TPMS. Dash kit seems like probable issue.
· You can find more details of which products I have installed by visiting the link on my signature.
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Last edited by camarograna2; 05-24-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:01 AM   #2
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Not saying it's impossible... but I think the chances of your install actually causing your problems is... as close to impossible as it can get. Radios definitely don't output RF (because they are a reciever), and a sat signal is way too high of a frequency to interfere with your TPMS.

Quick confusion though...

"Problem is this thing doesn't turn on when I first turn on my car as it just randomly turns on afterwards. It's been anywhere from driving 5 minutes to 50 minutes at various driving speeds"

What doesn't turn on?
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:23 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalimus View Post
Not saying it's impossible... but I think the chances of your install actually causing your problems is... as close to impossible as it can get. Radios definitely don't output RF (because they are a reciever), and a sat signal is way too high of a frequency to interfere with your TPMS.

Quick confusion though...

"Problem is this thing doesn't turn on when I first turn on my car as it just randomly turns on afterwards. It's been anywhere from driving 5 minutes to 50 minutes at various driving speeds"

What doesn't turn on?
sorry for the confusion I was referring to the TPMS warning. It doesnt have a set pattern on when it throws me the warning. Supposedly my sensor does program but send too few pulses to the module and that its something with my GPS that is sending Interference.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalimus View Post
Not saying it's impossible... but I think the chances of your install actually causing your problems is... as close to impossible as it can get. Radios definitely don't output RF (because they are a reciever), and a sat signal is way too high of a frequency to interfere with your TPMS.

Quick confusion though...

"Problem is this thing doesn't turn on when I first turn on my car as it just randomly turns on afterwards. It's been anywhere from driving 5 minutes to 50 minutes at various driving speeds"

What doesn't turn on?
I would guess that the TPMS warning doesn't show up until he's been driving for a few minutes.

Sounds to me that someone (dealer tech) doesn't want to have to replace the TPMS receiver. The receiver is probably inside the wheel well and would be very difficult to access, and he would have to move your stereo equipment out of the way to get to it.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:32 AM   #5
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I have a theory that the alpine/scosche kit with the BCM alteration is the problem. If my car sits for 3 days it'll flake out a sensor. What's interesting is that when I changed wheels I got four new sensors. These are the newer sensors though so it may be something with the bcm programming. I don't know. I haven't had a problem since the wheel change. And I didn't have a problem before as long as I was driving the car.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrider01 View Post
I would guess that the TPMS warning doesn't show up until he's been driving for a few minutes.

Sounds to me that someone (dealer tech) doesn't want to have to replace the TPMS receiver. The receiver is probably inside the wheel well and would be very difficult to access, and he would have to move your stereo equipment out of the way to get to it.
thats what i told them to do but they dont think its the module. We will see

Hey so the dealer made it seem its just a TPMS sensor on the tire that feed to the module in the dash. Do you know for sure if there is a receiver in the wheel well cause they didnt mention a peep on that?
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grocerygetter View Post
I have a theory that the alpine/scosche kit with the BCM alteration is the problem. If my car sits for 3 days it'll flake out a sensor. What's interesting is that when I changed wheels I got four new sensors. These are the newer sensors though so it may be something with the bcm programming. I don't know. I haven't had a problem since the wheel change. And I didn't have a problem before as long as I was driving the car.
i asked him if him if he reflashed the BCM because I've read that the 2010 used 2 diff type of sensors so if you added the newer one it would require the BCM to be reflashed but he shot down that idea saying thats not my issue?
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:22 AM   #8
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Well, when the OnStar light on my rearview mirror was turning red out of no where, the dealer said that it was being caused by my aftermarket amp

I guess they are (were, in my case) trying to find a way to not cover it under warranty...
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:35 PM   #9
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The car is being bathed by the signal from all overhead GPS satellites at any given moment. The RF signal from them is unaware of whether or not your car has a GPS receiver in it, nor does it care; it hits your car, your neighbor's car, and everything else both vehicular and non-vehicular underneath it equally. So that's out.
The entire headunit does create a small amount of RF; it has a switching power supply so that's an inevitable result. It is not, under normal (or even the vast majority of abnormal!) situations, anything even remotely enough to cause issues with the TPMS. If a winding in the power supply has gotten loose enough or whatever to where it's messing with a sensor in the BACK tires...other computer modules (many of which are much closer to the radio) in the car are going to be acting up as well. So I think we can safely eliminate the radio with a gentle application of logic and common sense.
It IS possible that the sub amp is generating enough RFI to cause issues with the TPMS (speaking of which, did you get the memo on using cover sheets for your TPMS reports? I'm gonna go ahead and get you another copy of the memo...), but that does raise the question of why it's only just now causing issues. Not totally impossible, but an issue somewhere else is more likely. The dealership may say "it's not the sensor, it was working before" but you can point to everything aftermarket and say the same thing.

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Old 05-04-2012, 04:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwantone2 View Post
Well, when the OnStar light on my rearview mirror was turning red out of no where, the dealer said that it was being caused by my aftermarket amp

I guess they are (were, in my case) trying to find a way to not cover it under warranty...
My light has been shady ever since my install as well. Using the metra kit. I suspect I probably yanked on the antenna cable at some point without realizing it.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalimus View Post
Not saying it's impossible... but I think the chances of your install actually causing your problems is... as close to impossible as it can get. Radios definitely don't output RF (because they are a reciever), and a sat signal is way too high of a frequency to interfere with your TPMS.

Quick confusion though...

"Problem is this thing doesn't turn on when I first turn on my car as it just randomly turns on afterwards. It's been anywhere from driving 5 minutes to 50 minutes at various driving speeds"

What doesn't turn on?

i don't think it's possible either.....but all electricity does output some rf. with subwoofers, and amps, it's ever so slightly possible that it could be interfering with the system.

best bet is to disconnect the system. if the problem persists, then the system is not the cause.

also, i just went looking through tsb's, and couldn't find any for this type of problem.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:49 PM   #12
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here's some info on it.....

Customer Concerns and Confusion with the Tire Pressure
Monitoring (TPM) System
The following procedure should be used by dealership service consultants when a customer comes
into the service drive with a "low tire light" on or comments on a check tire pressure/low tire
pressure/add air to tire or service tire monitor system message. The service consultant should
perform the following steps:
Procedure
Turn the key to ON, without starting the engine.
Subject: Dealership Service Consultant Procedure as Vehicle Comes
into Service Drive for Tire Pressure Monitor (TPM) System
Message, Light and Customer Information
Models: 2006-2010 Cars and Light Duty Trucks (Including Saturn and
Saab)
2006-2010 HUMMER H2, H3
Attention: The information found in this bulletin is to be used as a dealership service
consultant procedure for customers coming into the service lane with an
illuminated "low tire light" or comments on a check tire pressure/low tire
pressure/add air to tire or service tire monitor system message.
Maintaining proper tire pressures is an Owner’s Maintenance item and is
not covered under warranty.
• If the low tire light comes on and stays on solid with a check tire pressure/low tire
pressure/add air to tire message (on vehicles equipped with DIC), advise the customer:
- The system is working properly.
-
Properly adjusting all tire air pressures to the recommended levels and driving the vehicle
will turn the light off (refer to the Tire and Loading Information label on the driver side
door).
- More detailed information can be found in the Owner Manual.
- Service is not covered under warranty - this maintenance is the responsibility of the owner.
- Give the customer a copy of the attached "GM Customer TPMS Information".
• If the Tire Pressure Monitor (TPM) light blinks for one minute then stays on solid with a
service tire monitor system message (on vehicles equipped with DIC):
© 2009 General Motors Corporation. All rights reserved.
Page 1 of 7
5/28/2009
For more detailed information, refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 07-03-16-004 and TPMS
Training Course 13044.12T2.
Tire Pressure Light
At key on, without starting the vehicle:
Steady Solid Glowing TPM Indicator
-
A TPM system problem exists. The vehicle should be written up accordingly and sent to
your service department for further DTC diagnosis and service.
-
If dashes (--) are displayed in only one or two of the tire pressure readouts, it is likely
caused by a previous TPM system relearn that was performed incorrectly due to
interference from another vehicle’s TPM system during the relearn process (refer to the
Important statement later in this bulletin regarding TPM relearn with a Tech 2®).
-
If dashes (--) are displayed in all four of the tire pressure readouts, there is a system
problem. Follow the appropriate SI service procedures.
• If a customer indicates the low tire light comes on for a few minutes when the vehicle is
started, then goes off after driving a while, advise the customer:
- The system is working properly.
-
Most likely, air pressure in one or more of the tires is low enough to turn the light on when
tires are cold. After driving for a while, tires will heat up, allowing tire air pressure to
increase above the threshold causing the light to go off. Properly adjusting all tire air
pressures to the recommended levels will correct this (Refer to the Tire and Loading
Information Label on the driver side door).
- More detailed information can be found in the Owner Manual.
- Service is not covered under warranty - this maintenance is the responsibility of the owner.
- Give the customer a copy of the attached "GM Customer TPMS Information".
Document ID: 2272292 Page 2 of 7
5/28/2009
If the TPM indicator appears as a steady glowing yellow lamp (as above), the system is functioning
properly and you should add air to the tires to correct this condition.
Blinking TPM Indicator
If the TPM indicator appears as a BLINKING yellow lamp for one minute and then stays on solid,
diagnostic service is needed.
The Effect of Outside Temperature on Tire Pressures
Important: As a rule of thumb, tire pressure will change about 7 kPa (1 psi) for every 6°C (10°F)
decrease in temperature - Tire pressure will drop when it gets colder outside, and rise when it gets
warmer.
Under certain situations such as extreme outside temperature changes, the system may bring on a
solid light with a check tire pressure message. This should be considered normal and the system is
working properly. The light will turn off upon adding the proper amount of air to the tires (refer to
the Tire & Loading Information label in the driver’s door opening). When properly adjusting tire air
pressure, the following steps are important to help optimize the system and prolong bringing a tire
pressure light on:
• Use an accurate, high quality tire pressure gauge.
• Never set the tire pressure below the specified placard value regardless of tire temperature
or ambient temperature.
• Tire pressure should be set to the specified placard pressure at the lowest seasonal
temperature the vehicle will encounter during operation.
• When adding proper tire air pressure, it is important to remember fluctuations in outside air
temperatures and tire temperatures effect tire air pressures.
• After you have added the proper tire pressure, if the vehicle has a DIC (after the system has
Document ID: 2272292 Page 3 of 7
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:49 PM   #13
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2009
Important: Always take outside temperature and tire temperature into consideration to properly
set tire pressures. For example, on colder days (20°F/-7°C), if setting the tire pressure when the
vehicle has been indoors (60°F/16°C) or the tires are warm from being driven, it will be necessary
to compensate for the low outside temperature by adding 21-27 kPa (3-4 psi) more than the
placard pressure. At some later time, when the vehicle has been parked outside for a while, the
tires will cool off and the pressures will drop back into the placard range.
Important: Recently, nitrogen gas (for use in inflating tires) has become available to the general
consumer through some retailers. The use of nitrogen gas to inflate tires is a technology used in
automobile racing. Tires inflated with nitrogen gas may exhibit less of a pressure change in
response to outside temperature changes. Nitrogen gas inflation is compatible with GM TPM
sensors. For additional information, refer to Corporate Service Bulletin 05-03-10-020B.
Important: All Models (Except the Pontiac Vibe): Do not perform a TPM relearn at PDI, the system
has already been set at the Assembly Plant. Do not perform a TPM relearn after adding air to tires.
The low tire light is similar to the low fuel indicator and adding something (fuel, air) to the vehicle
makes that light turn back off again. Note that because of system behavior, some vehicles must be
driven a short distance before the sensors recognize the increase in pressure and turns the light off
again.
Pontiac Vibe Only: Do not use the TPMS reset button to turn off the light. The system will update
and light will turn off when all tire pressures have been adjusted followed by short distance drive.
Important: All Models (except the Pontiac Vibe): Each tire monitor sensor is learned to a specific
vehicle corner. When performing a TPM relearn (only after a tire rotation or replacement of a TPM
sensor or module), always use the Tech 2® to initiate the J 46079 relearn process. Tech 2®-
initiated relearns lock out other vehicle TPM signals that may be broadcasting in the area. Only
signals initiated by the J 46079 tool will be accepted. This method avoids storing false TPM I.D.s
and will prevent customers from returning with dashes (--) displayed in tire pressure readouts
and/or a flashing tire pressure monitor (TPM) light. Checking the four TPM I.D.s with the Tech 2®
prior to and following relearn to verify they are the same can prevent invalid I.D. learns.
Pontiac Vibe Only: Tire Monitor Sensors are not learned to a specific vehicle corner. Do not perform
a TPM Reset after tire rotation. The TPMS Reset button must only be used during pre-delivery
inspection by the dealer to initialize the system (after all tire pressures have been adjusted
properly) or when a Tire Pressure Monitor System component is replaced. The J 46079 tool does
not work on Vibe TPM sensors. A TPMS relearn on Vibe must be performed with a Tech 2® to set
the TPMS Module in learn mode. The TPMS sensor IDs are entered through the Tech 2®. Refer to
SI for further Vibe TPMS information.
Labor Operation and Repair Order/Warranty System Claim
Required Documentation
Important: The ONLY time labor operation E0716 or E0722 should be used is to diagnose for a
system issue. That should ONLY occur if, at key ON, without starting the engine, the Tire Pressure
Monitor (TPM) light blinks for one minute and then stays on solid with a Service Tire Monitor
System message (on vehicles equipped with a DIC). If that occurs, a TPM system problem exists
and the system will have set a DTC. If one of these labor operations is used, the following Repair
updated), check to see if DIC displays are the same readings as the tire pressure gauge used
(adjust as necessary).
• Only perform a TPM sensor re-learn after a tire rotation or system part replacements and use
the Tech 2® to initiate the relearn whenever possible to avoid invalid sensor I.D. learns.
Document ID: 2272292 Page 4 of 7
5/28/2009
Order and Warranty System documentation are required:
If the above information is not documented on the Repair Order and Warranty System, the claim
may be rejected. If the Warranty Parts Center (WPC) generates a request, this repair order
documentation must be sent back.
Customer TPMS Information
Dear GM Customer:
Customer care is at the top of our priority list at GM. We value our customers and want to make
certain of a great ownership experience. To assist you in better understanding your vehicle, please
make note of the following information relative to tire air pressure and the vehicle system that
monitors air pressure performance.
Tire air pressure is a maintenance item in which the owner is responsible. Your vehicle is equipped
with a Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) designed to provide you with adequate information
to maintain proper tire air pressure. Proper tire air pressure is important to optimize safety, fuel
economy, vehicle performance, and tire wear.
Changes in weather, including warm or cold outdoor temperatures, can cause air in your tires to
expand or contract. Should this occur, your vehicle’s TPMS may give you a low tire signal/alert
along with the following message: Check Tire Pressure/Low Tire Pressure/Add Air To Tire.
• Document the customer complaint on the Repair Order.
• Document the TPMS DTC that has set on the Repair Order.
• Enter the TPMS DTC in the Warranty System (WINS) in the Failure Code/DTC field on the
claim submission (refer to the Claims Processing Manual, Section IV, Warranty Claim Data,
Page 6, Item G).
Your GM Dealer has determined that the TPMS on your vehicle is working properly. The light will
turn off upon adding the proper amount of air to the tires (per the Tire & Loading Information label
in the driver’s door opening) followed by driving the vehicle a short distance. The low tire light is
similar to the low fuel indicator and adding fuel or air to the vehicle will turn off the light.
Frequently Asked Questions:
Q: Why does my vehicle have a Tire Pressure Monitoring System?
A: Starting with the 2008 model year, all vehicles sold in the United States are equipped with tire
pressure monitoring in order to meet the requirements of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety
Standard 138 issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Some GM vehicles built
prior to the 2008 model year or sold in Canada may also have a tire pressure monitoring system;
check vehicle build option information to be sure.
Document ID: 2272292 Page 5 of 7
5/28/2009
Q: How does the Tire Pressure Monitoring System operate?
TPM Indicator Light
A: The system is designed to monitor tire air pressure and notify the driver when the tire pressure
in any tire becomes too low. The system will turn on a yellow lighted graphic. If the air pressure
remains low, each time the vehicle is restarted, the light will reappear, some vehicles may also
display the following message: Check Tire Pressure/Low Tire Pressure/Add Air To Tire.
Q: What if my tire pressure light comes on and stays on solid with a Check Tire Pressure/Low Tire
Pressure/Add Air to Tire message?
A: Simply add the proper amount of air to your tires. Refer to the Tire & Loading Information label
in the driver door opening for the recommended tire pressures. Once the tires are properly filled
with air, drive the vehicle and the message/light will go off.
Q: How would I know if the Tire Pressure Monitoring System was not working properly?
A: Each time the vehicle is started, the system’s yellow light will appear. It will "blink" for one
minute, then remain on solid. Some vehicles may also display the following message: Service Tire
Monitor System. If this happens, visit a GM dealer for service.
For more information, refer to the Owner Manual or go to www.CheckMyTires.org.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach@ExtremePerformance View Post
The car is being bathed by the signal from all overhead GPS satellites at any given moment. The RF signal from them is unaware of whether or not your car has a GPS receiver in it, nor does it care. So that's out.
The entire headunit does create a small amount of RF; it has a switching power supply so that's an inevitable result. It is not, under normal (or even the vast majority of abnormal!) situations, anything even remotely enough to cause issues with the TPMS. If a winding in the power supply has gotten loose enough or whatever to where it's messing with a sensor in the BACK tires...other computer modules in the car are going to be acting up as well. So I think we can safely eliminate the radio with a gentle application of logic and common sense.
It IS possible that the sub amp is generating enough RFI to cause issues with the TPMS (speaking of which, did you get the memo on using cover sheets for your TPMS reports? I'm gonna go ahead and get you another copy of the memo...), but that does raise the question of why it's only just now causing issues. Not totally impossible, but an issue somewhere else is more likely. The dealership may say "it's not the sensor, it was working before" but you can point to everything aftermarket and say the same thing.
Zach - Very good info and im very much appreciative of your feedback. I did not get the memo on using cover sheets for your TPMS reports. Can you pass that along to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach@ExtremePerformance View Post
It IS possible that the sub amp is generating enough RFI to cause issues with the TPMS but that does raise the question of why it's only just now causing issues
So lets say it was one of my 2 amps, would i be able to sorround it with something to block the RFI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach@ExtremePerformance View Post
The dealership may say "it's not the sensor, it was working before" but you can point to everything aftermarket and say the same thing.
Yep thats exactly my feeling. I repeatedly told them that everything had been working fine with my system
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