ZL1-LSA-MR+LS7+Pedders Coilovers = Z28?

[TLSTWIN]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?

Its not how fast I want to go, it is how fast I want to get to that speed and stop, turn, etc.. I could really care less about top speed. I have been faster on the track on my bike... it isn't about speed.... it's about speed under control

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

Its not how fast I want to go, it is how fast I want to get to that speed and stop, turn, etc.. I could really care less about top speed. I have been faster on the track on my bike... it isn't about speed.... it's about speed under control

I think that sums it up, speed under control!. Well placed point about operating a M/C under speed versus car. Also, people tend to forget, or maybe not even think about about different age groups who will operate this vehicle and their differences in vision, reaction time, and diminished driving ability due to increasing age. <I fall in that gap for sure>

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Just wait until GM announces specs on the Z28 (assuming that they will ever do such a thing of course). Then we'll see all the bickering migrate here. People complaining that its a TTV6, or an upgraded LS3, or an LS7, or an LS9 while others defend GMs choice. People complaining that it doesn't weigh less than 3400 lbs, or 3500 lbs, or 3600 lbs, or 3700 lbs, or 3800 lbs while others defend GMs choice. People complaining that it doesn't have MRC, or that it does, and others defending GMs choice. People complaining about how it looks, and others ... yes, you guessed it, defending GMs choice.

Honestly, as annoying as it can be at times ... it is what we did on this site before anyone had their 5th gens. Its kinda nice to be reminded of the old days.

Your probably right. ;(

[thePill]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

...competent enhanced FE4...

FE4 with perhaps a Z51 competition package standard. This would be similar to the Corvette's Z51 package but some of the upgrades could be left off. The old Z51 package upgraded the transmission, brakes, shocks, suspension and many other things for about $1500. The F55 package (1st gen MRC) cost $1675, if the price is similar (I expect the MRC to be over $2000) then it could be an option. It would definitely make a competition Z28 pretty rare as most will unknowingly check the MRC box.

Here is something to think about as well, the LS7's TR6060 MM6 is rated exactly at the current Z06's torque rating at 470lb ft. That rating was achieved at 4000lbs so that leaves some room IF the Z28 stays below that weight. Also, the gear ratio's are pretty high... Using a 3.73 would work pretty well and would almost be necessary with the extra weight over the Z06. The 3.73s might affect the 1/4 mile times as if may force the car into an additional gear (ZL1 might do this) however, it will keep the car in the powerband on a road course. Here are the TR6060's MM6's gear ratios...
1st: 2.66
2nd: 1.78
3rd: 1.30
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.74
6th: 0.50

The 20 inch tire will of course slow the car down and if 19's were used, the transmission would have to be carefully tuned along with the final gear ratio. If 19's are used then 3.73s might not be necessary. As the transmission stands now, no modifications would be needed to use an LS7/MM6. I did my calculations on the MG9 in a 4152lbs ZL1 about 6 months ago which eventually lead me very close to the weight of the car (along with the part weights as well). Because the torque rating was initially rated at the CTS-V's 4250lbs at 560lb ft, I knew that Chevrolet would have to add some additional support (which they did; output shafts and rear housing). The final torque rating settled at 556lb ft and it kinda sucks they couldn't squeeze the MG9 in without reinforcement but, they would not have that problem with the proposed Z28 using an LS7/MM6 at or under 4000lbs.

This also means that there is currently no suitable option for an automatic Z28 but in my opinion, there shouldn't be one in a track car anyway. There is a downside though, not only is the LS7 more expensive than the LSA (about $4000 if I remember correctly) the Z06's MM6 and the ZR1's MH3 are the most expensive transmissions Chevrolet uses. The cost per transmission is almost double than the MG9 ($3500 vs. $6000). If nothing else from the FE4 SS is upgraded, we are looking at a $40,000 MSRP.

I have some other things to calculate but seeing as the engine and transmission are the most expensive additions, $40,000 is a very good starting point if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

If memory serves....the Camaro is doing quite well competing in sanctioned/recognized racing events...and there's no ZL1 OR Z28 model...I'd tend to believe both of these are tailored to the recreational racer...versus the professional one.

With regards to MR, since it was brought up - On a hypothetical Z28, I'd like to see it as an available option. Much like the GS Corvette offers.

The Camaro was doing well in Grand AM but, NASCAR helped Chevrolet a great deal during those races. Restrictions on the Camaro were completely removed while additional restrictions were placed on the Boss and M3. During that period, the Boss 302 was running only 40% of its 80mm intake (it was worse for BMW), after the 3rd race, restrictions were removed and the Camaro has been struggling to break the top 10 every since (see NJ's finals). It was rumored that Chevrolet was going to pull their entries from Grand Am GS as many of the drivers were in jeopardy of losing their ride at the time. Grand Am helped Chevrolet enough to bring them back into the points race but eventually, teams petitioned and had all restrictions removed and Stevenson sank back to 5th place overall.

As for SCCA, there hasn't been a Camaro in stock, touring, prep or modified that has been competitive since 2009. Camaro's are also prohibited in solo (autocross) due to weight and air bag deployment and I believe they had a win at Miller in the World Challenge. They have to get by Paul Brown and Jason von Kluge in GTS and that is difficult... They were doing well in Grand Am GT but GT cars are shadows of what they are stock. The Camaro requires a tube frame to drop its weight below 3300lbs as well as suspension work, team built engines and transmissions. Autohaus is very close to winning the championship this year.

A well rounded Camaro would be doing better in SCCA GTS and Grand Am GS if the cars had competitive suspension setups from the factory (No Camaro in FIA).

[LOWDOWN]

Folks, as I think about a "de-contented ZL1 with LS7" as the basis for "our" Z/28, something else that should be an option would be the engine and diff. coolers. Some of these cars (most?) will never see a track, and some of these will be DDs in pretty cool climates. Over-cooling can lead to mechanical problems and inefficiencies (cardboard over radiators in winter, anyone?), and the Base Curb Weight will "enjoy" a reduction, as well, not to mention the Base Price...

As for R & D, IF (in caps) there is to be our desired version, I suspect some "parallel development" has/is occuring. So much is "duplication" on this platform that, for expediency's sake and cost containment, the job could be very nearly covered (and overall costs spread) already...

Makes the ZL1 "more profitable", and prepares for the inevitable "Z/28 flood" of interest/orders.

I also don't think we'll see this baby before the ZL1 order bank is FULL, and production/sales/deliveries are hummin'. As the true halo product, the ZL1 must be entrenched, and profit$ realized, before something "lesser" in scope AND price/profit appears.

However, if the ZL1 does not meet GM's "inside predictions", sales-wise, initially, "HELLO Z/28!"

Somehow, the ZEE must appear...it's simply to "i-car-nic" to overlook!

[thePill]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Folks, as I think about a "de-contented ZL1 with LS7" as the basis for "our" Z/28, something else that should be an option would be the engine and diff. coolers. Some of these cars (most?) will never see a track, and some of these will be DDs in pretty cool climates

You are probably correct that most ZL1's will not see a track but I guarnetee that a Z28 that is aimed at the Boss 302's crowd would. There are quite a few Boss 302s in SCCA and NASA and there are quite a few Boss 302's in line for a championship this year in stock, touring and prepped. A $40,000 dollar race car is a fantastic deal especially since the GTS, GS and GT4 guys are paying $79,000 to $129,000

There would definitely have to be trim options for the Z28 due to class requirements. Say a Z28, Z28 GS and a Z28R... There are drivers that pay for the prepped car like the 302S and 302R and there is even more money to be made there. I myself would be interested in a Z28 roller if it was cheaper than a Boss/Cobra Jet roller.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by thePill

FE4 with perhaps a Z51 competition package standard. This would be similar to the Corvette's Z51 package but some of the upgrades could be left off. The old Z51 package upgraded the transmission, brakes, shocks, suspension and many other things for about $1500.

Forged 20s/Michelins/HD FE4/HD Diff/HD Trans/6-4 Brakes (as upgrades, NOT replacements) will add approx. $7,000. Crate LS7 - crate LS3 = $7,000, as per GMPP.

Originally Posted by thePill

There is a downside though, not only is the LS7 more expensive than the LSA (about $4000 if I remember correctly)

Actually, the LS7 sells for LESS, slightly. With 80 fewer ft-lb, and the same driveline, the LS7 will prove to be more warranty-friendly, though...

Originally Posted by thePill

I have some other things to calculate but seeing as the engine and transmission are the most expensive additions, $40,000 is a very good starting point if you ask me.

If only... As defined throughout this thread, figure mid-$40s...BOSS LS-correct/competitive. Add for MR ($2-2,500, as a substitute), add for coolers...

[thePill]

I always remembered the LS7 being $18,000 but the price came way down in the last year I guess. That is also the case with the LS3, it was almost $7000 and sometimes over but I can find them new for $6,100-$6,300. Still, the LS7 and MM6 would push the MSRP close to $44,000 alone... still pretty decent for a power to weight ratio of 7.80 and 505hp/470tq.

Definitely get rid of the 20s, 20 inch wheels are no good especially when drivers usually rotate tires and your running two different treads and profiles. A boxed setup would be far better, 275/285s all the way around and Michelins would be best unless Dunlop or Pirelli offer an alternative (all three make great tires). Even though Chevrolet used Michelins on the ZL1, they are still saying that it will still come equipped with the Goodyears with a 220+ tread wear rating. It depends on who has the contract I guess. The coolers add alot of weight but they are worth it for longevity as long as the car is NA. Remember, you absolutely have to keep the weight below 4000lbs, anything more will have a negative impact on the TR6060 MM6 and additional support will be needed. The transmission cost enough as it is, no need to make the MM6 cost any more than it does now (which is about $2000-$2500 over the MG9).

As for the brakes, with the weight difference between the ZL1 and Z28, the huge brake set up will not be required. The only reason Chevrolet used the huge disc and 6/4 pot calipers is because the ZL1 absolutely needs it. It is possible that just an increase in caliper size/pistons will be required as long as weight is kept close to the SS. A 4200lbs car takes a lot of braking to stop the car, it also takes a lot of tire too. A lighter car doesn't need brakes that size so SS disc should work, it would all depend on the tire thickness. Ultimately, the tires are responsible for stopping the car, the brakes stop the wheels. Smaller disc also allows the driver to use a smaller diameter wheel such as an 18/19, this is a valuable option if you were to go prepped or modified. The Grand Am Camaro GS only uses 13 inch disc due to it's 3400lb race weight. If you are stuck with almost 15 inch disc then it becomes impossible to change the wheel diameter, most GT500 owners love the fact that a 15 inch wheel will fit over a stock brake for drag racing... not possible if the Z28 uses the ZL1s setup.

[LOWDOWN]

I agree, 19s with 305s at all 4 corners would be fantastic for gription and dynamics (including further weight reduction)...but a ZEE will be "saddled" with the same rolling-stock as the ZL1, I suspect, perhaps with an R-compound tire as an exception/option.

Coolers and R-compounds...with or without MR...nice purposeful options, no?

The other factor to keep in mind is, in the volumes GM buys (ZL1 and ZEE combined), the piece prices are considerably less as upgrades than just the price differential between the two items.

They make money on 1SS, they'll make money on the ZL1...and they'll surely make money on the ZEE.

[thePill]

It would also be nice to have the fuel door on the pit side/driver side, this is something that would bother me if I intended to go beyond the little races.

[Huggerorange73]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Wow, how serene it is here amongst the Z28 threads. Been in the ZL1 threads, a lot of bickering that it's not a true track car. Why vent when they are welcome to join our cause?

I believe more people want a true "Z28" than many think. Hey GM are you still listening?

Just found this thread today.....Build the Z28 GM.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Many people are hung up on 'spotlighted' details like forged pistons...And ignore the plethora of coolers and real-world endurance testing it's undergone...Fortunately, these people are due to have their socks blown off.


Here's to hoping everybody's wishes come true. And those with unreasonable wishes go somewhere else.

Coolers and endurance testing can all go to hell in a handbasket with one bad tank of fuel. Detonation > Cast pistons.

[JusticePete]

Lose the MR and insert Pedders Supercars for the serious Z/28 They could ship the cars on dummy dampers and coils

Wouldn't it be nice if the Z also shipped with vacuum bagged light lay up Carbon Fibre doors, hood and deck lid and even better a bonded carbon center roof section.

A Pedders Justice kit matched up to 19x10.5 or if we are forced by bumper regs, 10.5x20 with 305/30s all round.

Coated and wrapped headers out to a titanium exhaust from a newly upgraded LS7.

A hoop behind the driver's seat is essential to mount a point of five point harnesses.

Skip the CTS-V brakes and go straight to the 'good stuff' from Brembo.

Seperate the clutch and brake reservoirs into two independent reservoirs.

Do I get in trouble if our new Z/28 is faster than a ZL1 and Z06. I don't care. It was all Flouders idea anyway. JP was dead set against this from the start.

Do I get in trouble in the thread if my Z/28 sells for more than a ZL1, even though it will be faster, but more importantly faster than the pesky mustang?

[Fightinfire921]

Originally Posted by Huggerorange73

Just found this thread today.....Build the Z28 GM.

Welcome Hugger, please don't get our threads closed like the ones at that other Z place.

[Huggerorange73]

Originally Posted by WYKOFF69Z

Welcome Hugger, please don't get our threads closed like the ones at that other Z place.

I don't think that will be a problem......I'm fairly certain we are all on the same page here with what we're after.