Any blown up ZL1 engines yet?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by trademaster

Anyone worth their salt knows the problem with hypereutectic pistons doesn't lie in their strength, but hardness. Hypereutectic pistons are strong, but brittle. They are perfectly capable of sustaining high cylinder pressures, but throw in some knock and they'll be in pieces before you know it. With the LSA you are going to have to be more conservative with the tune than in the 5.8. That's why you see the stock ZL1 tune pull so much timing in higher heat conditions, to avoid knock. This is also why you see a lot of the shops doing efficiency mods like heads and cams instead of just tossing on massive blowers and cranking out tons of boost on stock motors like the gt500 shops are. This is a truth that zl1 owners are going to have to keep in mind when modifying. Take your cars to reputable tuners only, because hypereutectic pistons do not hold up well to knock. With a good conservative tune you should have no problem satisfying your hp needs reliably with the wonderful LSA.

With a given fuel type, 9/10 times I would bet on the 5.8 short-block having a higher "safe" ceiling, but both engines top out at such high power levels it's really a silly debate. Both engines are capable of huge numbers and both can easily be fortified to handle more. When it comes to cost, well I wouldn't really consider the cost difference too significant because of the differences between the two engines. You must keep in mind the additional surrounding components of the 5.8 including the blower and cooling system. Bolt on only 5.8s are making over 750rwhp. In the long run, either engine is going to bring about the same overall cost per hp.

Absolutely that's their disadvantage. Just as I've heard blow-by and noise/harshness can be a disadvantage of forged alum. pistons. There is no silver bullet, which is what I think others (and myself) point has been this whole time.

We know (and GM knows doubly so) what the strength and weaknesses of the hyper pistons are, and so we can work around that.

My personal belief is: if you're serious about achieving such power levels aftermarket...don't be cheap about it - I want an engine that will last...and so if I'm gunning for 700+ hp, I'm replacing EVERYTHING inside...Extra cost? Yeah...worth the peace-of-mind? 100%.......but that all said....that's why I'm not gunning for those power levels.

The LSA, as it is in stock form, is an absolutely phenomenal engine with no inherent "weaknesses". With a proper tune (is there any substitute?) it's highly capable of impressive power levels after-market. Want to go insane? Do it right, instead of complaining the manufacturer didn't do it for you (not you, trademaster, just in general) IMHO...

[All-American ZL1]

Both great cars, neither are invincible. Anyone seen this

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257245

[gm_joe]

I would like to get some info in regards to forged rotating assembly versus cast, or in this case powdered metal. Is it true that a forged rotating assembly is heavier than cast and therefore requires more energy to get the RPM's up? That is why manufactures do not typically used a complete forged rotating assembly.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by gm_joe

I would like to get some info in regards to forged rotating assembly versus cast, or in this case powdered metal. Is it true that a forged rotating assembly is heavier than cast and therefore requires more energy to get the RPM's up? That is why manufactures do not typically used a complete forged rotating assembly.

I don't think it is weight. Manufacturers do not typically go all-forged for emissions, NVH, and cost primarily (among other reasons).

The process to produce strong, forged parts is expensive.

Forged aluminum pistons typically create a little more noise and tend to have greater expansion than hyper eutectic pistons (producing higher cold-start emissions). That the LSA was originally design for a Cadillac, any compromise to refinement/smoothness was unacceptable.

[speedmon]

Originally Posted by hognutz

lsa is $11,199

http://paceperformance.com/i-6255521...te-engine.html

trinity 5.8 ~25-26k I have heard but there is not good source yet. the last gen 5.4 was $22-23k if I remeber right.

5.8 has forged pistons put PM forged rods 2.3L eaton@15psi. LSA has hypereutectic pistons and PM forged rods 1.9L eaton@8.5psi.



When I was looking at the GT500 one of the things tha gave me pause was the way the block is manufactured. it is punched way out and the cyliner wall have a special process perfomed on them.

Sounded like an issue with the block would require a new one. I have had mustangs before and you can make great power but they cost more $$$ for hp if you have an issue with the motor.

You have to look around.....many dealers have private label websites.
Pace is high.
Here's just one.
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/62-L...17668C719.aspx
GM Dealer....Rockenbach Chevy
New LSA nonetheless....I don't know where they get the additional 30hp in the ZL1.

I'm looking to repower my SS but I want a warranty....so I've been looking.

[hognutz]

Originally Posted by speedmon

You have to look around.....many dealers have private label websites.
Pace is high.
Here's just one.
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/62-L...17668C719.aspx
GM Dealer....Rockenbach Chevy
New LSA nonetheless....I don't know where they get the additional 30hp in the ZL1.

I'm looking to repower my SS but I want a warranty....so I've been looking.

That is a differet part number on that site pace has that number as well. Might be minus the supercharger.

http://paceperformance.com/i-6220227...er-engine.html

[Bcruse84]

Blew head gasket tonight with only 1980 miles.

[Big Top Gt]

With most FI cars, they die most quickly from one of two condition: a bad tune or too much rpm.

Either one is a recipe for disaster.

[Blast]

Originally Posted by hognutz

That is a differet part number on that site pace has that number as well. Might be minus the supercharger.

http://paceperformance.com/i-6220227...er-engine.html

I could be wrong but I think that the LSA in the CTS-V has a different part number than the ZL1 LSA.

// Stefan

[06x6spdGTO]

Watched the Yellow "200+MPH Lingenfelter ZL1" let go in early August this year..... Put down a oil slick about 800' long x 5' wide!! Happened at the SORC Shootout in Arnold Nebraska..

[Russell James]

Originally Posted by wakeman808

I can confirm if you are running 700+RWHP, the internals definitely need to be changed. I've got a rod knocking now.

Internals and externals. There is nothing about any stock LS engine capable of a reliable 825 hp. Or 18 lbs of boost from the other one that blew the head gaskets at 18.

For that kind of power, the starting point is either an LSX block or one of the other high dollar aftermarket blocks.

Adding a couple hundred + hp to a stock engine, the expected result is a pile of broken parts.

[SoL93GT]

Originally Posted by The IOM Ninja

THE GT500 ISN'T FULLY FORGED, anyone with a brain knows that the rods are powder forged, the one major weak link of the engine….

Yes they are not like the Manley Forged H beam rods that came in the '03-'04 Cobra but that were able to make well over 1000 rwhp, but all of the current V8 Mustang engines use forged powdered metal rods. These Rods are cold compacted into there near final shape. The rods are then sintered (put into a furnace near 2100 degrees F) to bond the particles. After they cool from the sintering process, they are reheated and coined in a sizing die (i.e. forged). The entire process incorporates both sintering and forging, and is often referred to as sinter-forged. However, calling it 'forged' is not a misrepresentation. They are in fact, forged.

You can forge a powdered metal preform, or you can forge a piece of bar stock. The benefit of PM is lower waste (cost) and the ability to do cracked caps (which prevent 'walking', a leading cause of failure, without the expense of doweling the rod ends. The benefit of forging bar stock is increased density (strength).

With these Forged rods, Pistons, and Crank in the 2013 GT500, a lot of aftermarket Mustang tuners, like Evolution Performance have made at least 1200 rwhp with a stock engine and upgraded supercharger, without any problems with engine breakage with the proper tune. That is how they have been able to run 8's with a stock 2013 GT500 with the stock engine. Any motor can blow up with an improper tune.

[BPG]

Originally Posted by SoL93GT

Yes they are not like the Manley Forged H beam rods that came in the '03-'04 Cobra but that were able to make well over 1000 rwhp, but all of the current V8 Mustang engines use forged powdered metal rods. These Rods are cold compacted into there near final shape. The rods are then sintered (put into a furnace near 2100 degrees F) to bond the particles. After they cool from the sintering process, they are reheated and coined in a sizing die (i.e. forged). The entire process incorporates both sintering and forging, and is often referred to as sinter-forged. However, calling it 'forged' is not a misrepresentation. They are in fact, forged.

You can forge a powdered metal preform, or you can forge a piece of bar stock. The benefit of PM is lower waste (cost) and the ability to do cracked caps (which prevent 'walking', a leading cause of failure, without the expense of doweling the rod ends. The benefit of forging bar stock is increased density (strength).

With these Forged rods, Pistons, and Crank in the 2013 GT500, a lot of aftermarket Mustang tuners, like Evolution Performance have made at least 1200 rwhp with a stock engine and upgraded supercharger, without any problems with engine breakage with the proper tune. That is how they have been able to run 8's with a stock 2013 GT500 with the stock engine. Any motor can blow up with an improper tune.

You registered to post this? WOW...

[Jeff_SS]

Originally Posted by SoL93GT

Yes they are not like the Manley Forged H beam rods that came in the '03-'04 Cobra but that were able to make well over 1000 rwhp, but all of the current V8 Mustang engines use forged powdered metal rods. These Rods are cold compacted into there near final shape. The rods are then sintered (put into a furnace near 2100 degrees F) to bond the particles. After they cool from the sintering process, they are reheated and coined in a sizing die (i.e. forged). The entire process incorporates both sintering and forging, and is often referred to as sinter-forged. However, calling it 'forged' is not a misrepresentation. They are in fact, forged.

You can forge a powdered metal preform, or you can forge a piece of bar stock. The benefit of PM is lower waste (cost) and the ability to do cracked caps (which prevent 'walking', a leading cause of failure, without the expense of doweling the rod ends. The benefit of forging bar stock is increased density (strength).

With these Forged rods, Pistons, and Crank in the 2013 GT500, a lot of aftermarket Mustang tuners, like Evolution Performance have made at least 1200 rwhp with a stock engine and upgraded supercharger, without any problems with engine breakage with the proper tune. That is how they have been able to run 8's with a stock 2013 GT500 with the stock engine. Any motor can blow up with an improper tune.

You heard it here guys, stock 2013 GT500's run 8's with a proper tune!