[NicD]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

I tend to agree with this point.

But, as someone mentioned earlier, .4 of a second over say, a 20-30 lap race. That's a beat down. Over a one lap hot lap and it doesn't sound so bad.

I would agree with both statements, these cars are all pretty amazing machines and perform at such a high level that the differences are going to be smaller and smaller. However .4 of a second adds up quickly in a real race and that will become a MUCH larger difference the longer it goes.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

I tend to agree with this point.

But, as someone mentioned earlier, .4 of a second over say, a 20-30 lap race. That's a beat down. Over a one lap hot lap and it doesn't sound so bad.

True, .4 sec per lap is big in a race, but these aren't race cars. This is good for bench racing and internet trolling, i'd be lying if I said i wasn't pleased that the car i ordered was faster, but it really doesn't matter. The Mustangs chassis is quite a bit older at this point, and they will no doubt raise their game and so on.

I am happy with the track reviews on the zl1 because they are generally positive and everyone says the car is balanced, and nobody says it tries to kill you, which is good because i am an an amateur (with some experience) and i intend to get this car on the track. I bet as a purely track car i would have more fun in the gt350r then the car I ordered, I like a rev happy na engine and a manual gearbox, but track time is a small fraction of what this car will be doing, and it will still do it very well.

I wanted a car that my wife could drive (at), that i could take to the track on occasion, that would do stupid burnouts, and be comfortable enough to drive to and from Lake Tahoe (200 miles each way), an make me giggle when i mash the skinny pedal on the way home from work. ZL1 ticked all those boxes.

If you're not careful these cars will make you a worse driver on the track because you go slow through the corners and rely on huge power in the straights, but you don't have to do that. I would like to have a gutted brz as a track car, momentum cars are great fun, and you don't have to be going 150mph to be entertained.

[Hooves]

When I first started shopping for my daily driver/track car I wanted a GT350 SOOOOO bad! I couldn't find one and ended up with the 1SS after driving A LOT of other cars.

I'm super happy with my choice in the 1SS, but if I was looking to spend ZL1 coin I'd definitely have to shop that GT350R if I could find one.

I agree there's no loser between the two!

[BaylorCamaro]

People talk about 0.4 seconds over the course of 20-30 laps but you cannot take a single lap and then multiple by a number of laps, it doesn't take into account other variables like how the tires will wear. The ZL1 is heavier than the GT350R by a couple hundred pounds and is going to put more wear on the tires faster.

I was at COTA when Stevenson debuted the Camaro GT4, on fresh slicks it was walking away from most of the class but after about a dozen laps the performance started to fall off a bit and then it just got worse from there and they dropped four positions.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by KenB925

True, .4 sec per lap is big in a race, but these aren't race cars.

But what if you bring the car to a track and race it, is it still not a "race car" or does that make the statement invalid somehow? There will be plenty of people who bring the car to a race track and actually race their car.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

People talk about 0.4 seconds over the course of 20-30 laps but you cannot take a single lap and then multiple by a number of laps, it doesn't take into account other variables like how the tires will wear. The ZL1 is heavier than the GT350R by a couple hundred pounds and is going to put more wear on the tires faster.

This is the same thing that happens on every car just to a different extent and every driver is well aware of how hard they are pushing it, how to not destroy brakes and tires, etc. It's called saving the car and using it when you need it in a race. Nobody is going to be running 10/10ths the whole race.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The Chevy GT car beat the Ford track car in every category and lost the match because it isn't a pure track car. I assumed this H2H was to benchmark the ZL1's capabilities but clearly, that isn't what happened.

If I were looking for a pure track car, I'd probably look at the SS-1LE or ZL1-1LE. The ZL1 is the do everything car. On par with a GT350R and Hellcat but not directly aimed at the R

Regarding the GT500 that might come someday. There is a ZR1 running around that is rumored to be +700 HP. It's reasonable to think/hope it will make its way to Camaro in the mid cycle refresh. 2018 is too soon for all the cards to have been played

I doubt it, the LS9 never made it into the Camaro. Even after the trinity debuted and shocked everyone with 662HP in 13, GM never put the LS9 in the ZL1 and soldiered on with the LSA.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

4 tenths is an ass kicking bro. That is a lot of time to make up.



All Ford does is they take a GT, throw a few badges and some other BS on it, do something to free up an extra 5-15 hp, and then call it a "Bullitt". Or they take an older Cobra engine and tweak it a little and call it a "Mach 1" like they did in 03. Or they just throw badges on it and do nothing else like they did with the S197 Mach1 and Bullitt. And their fans clap and say "hooray I paid an extra $10,000 for a re-badged GT thanks Ford". They had the Boss 302 and that was it. Everything else was a gimmick. And at this point Chevy doesn't even need the Z28 considering how well the ZL1 did and that the even better ZL1 1LE is coming out. All the special names in the world ain't gonna help the Mustang at this point.



What loss am I taking? The only thing that mattered to me is who beat who on the track. I often disagree with just about the majority of what MT says subjectively anyway. Hey they can make the Mustang the car of the year for the next few decades. I won't care. Show me the results. And there is nothing special about that dang engine that you keep praising. Nothing at all. It is wiped out and completely underpowered and completely underwhelming by today's standards. It is 2017 and the fastest Mustang costs over $60K and runs a 12.2 in the quarter and makes 526hp and 429 tq and you're sitting here calling THAT "special". In 2017? Bro you are out of your mind. 5 years ago that might have been pretty cool. But now that is really weak from a performance car. So exactly what is soo good about the GT350R when it is losing to it's competition in everything?

1. the Bullitt was not 10K more than a GT, it was maybe a few thousand more than a Premium GT
2. There was no S197 Mach 1
3. The Mach 1 in 03 was a nice split between the 260HP GT and the 390HP Cobra

Also you keep bringing up the the baddest mustang, can only do 12.2 in the 1/4 and is underpowered not special and overpriced. Just want to know what was your opinion on the 75K Z/28 that "only" had 505HP out of a 7.0L and "only" did the 1/4 in 12.3 seconds? Was that car "special"?

Originally Posted by hotlap

You're not considering that...

HP = (Torque x RPM)/5252

The Voodoo's power is a result of engine speed and is why it is weak from a start. The Chevy and Dodge engines make rich power over the entire RPM range because they have torque (i.e. displacement).


I disagree with your point here also. It was not a given that the ZL1 would run away and if you look at early posts here, that sentiment was commonly expressed. In the short history of these type of domestic cars, the lighter, less powerful, track focused car always won. The Alpha platform, at all levels, is SO good that expectations were high.

Below is my April 21 post to shaffe on this topic. Look back and you will see it is common.

I still expected the ZL1 to put a bigger gap on the 350R. Previous lap time at the track albeit different day shows the car is capable of it. You said it yourself the Alpha platform is so good, I just expected it to do better. (and it did but on a different day) I based that off of how good the SS 1LE was, add extra power and torque on demand and yes more weight but still thought the ZL1 would put a bigger gap between them.

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted by NicD

This is the same thing that happens on every car just to a different extent and every driver is well aware of how hard they are pushing it, how to not destroy brakes and tires, etc. It's called saving the car and using it when you need it in a race. Nobody is going to be running 10/10ths the whole race.

Correct but drivers being equal the ZL1 is still going to wear its tires faster. My point is over an endurance event that 0.4 lap advantage won't be a constant as some people seem to believe.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I doubt it, the LS9 never made it into the Camaro. Even after the trinity debuted and shocked everyone with 662HP in 13, GM never put the LS9 in the ZL1 and soldiered on with the LSA.


I still expected the ZL1 to put a bigger gap on the 350R. Previous lap time at the track albeit different day shows the car is capable of it. You said it yourself the Alpha platform is so good, I just expected it to do better. (and it did but on a different day) I based that off of how good the SS 1LE was, add extra power and torque on demand and yes more weight but still thought the ZL1 would put a bigger gap between them.

I wouldn't stick to the way things were done in the 5th gen. It is quite clear things at GM have changed quite a bit. The Camaro suffered from "purposely" detuned engines then. That's not the case anymore. But this is all conjecture anyway because we don't know what new engines are coming, just that something is. But unless there are some serious changes for the new GT500, don't think GM will need all that HP the ZR1 will likely have anyway in a future Z/28 to challenge it on the track.

I really wonder if track temps were much hotter and the GYs started losing grip compared to the Cup 2s. It is something GM is aware of obviously because they specifically state the ZL1 1LE tires "are designed to warm up faster to help maintain more consistent grip and speed, lap after lap".

http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/...camaroZL1.html

Sounds like to me the ZL1 GYs are probably designed for better "on road" performance, which could explain some of the time lost vs the earlier run this year. Either way, it ran what it did this day and that's what people should expect under similar conditions.

I really think a lot of people see the HP/TQ numbers and assume a beat down, but it is never that simple on the track. 200+lbs is a lot of weight difference for the track.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by NicD

But what if you bring the car to a track and race it, is it still not a "race car" or does that make the statement invalid somehow? There will be plenty of people who bring the car to a race track and actually race their car.

I feel i explained that statement in some detail in the same post.

To put a finer point on it, .4 sec per lap by a professional is somewhat irrelevant to armatures during a track day, as long as the car is a capable track car (clearly both of these cars are), and the driver is having fun.

It's been a while since I have been on the track (life and kids intervened, but i'll be back hopefully this fall), but the instructors (really good drivers) in low powered light cars (usually with good rubber) could pick off just about anyone they wanted to in a corner.

Point is, beyond bench racing, once the average owner is behind the wheel .4 seconds means very little. Again, i'm happy to be on the positive side of that .4, because I too am a bit of a child

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I wouldn't stick to the way things were done in the 5th gen. It is quite clear things at GM have changed quite a bit. The Camaro suffered from "purposely" detuned engines then. That's not the case anymore. But this is all conjecture anyway because we don't know what new engines are coming, just that something is. But unless there are some serious changes for the new GT500, don't think GM will need all that HP the ZR1 will likely have anyway in a future Z/28 to challenge it on the track.

I can only go based on past history. Corvette got LS1, Camaro got LS1,
Corvette got LS3, Camaro got LS3.
Corvette got LT1, Camaro got LT1,
CTS-V gets LSA, Camaro gets LSA,
Corvette no longer uses LS7, Camaro gets LS7,
Z06 got LT4, CTS V got LT4, Camaro ZL1 Gets LT4,


Halo Corvette gets LS9 Camaro never go it

Past history suggests Camaro will only share what is there, but if its for the Halo corvette, it wont get shared. Also if the new LT whatever is F/I that doesn't fit the narrative for a new Z/28

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I doubt it, the LS9 never made it into the Camaro. Even after the trinity debuted and shocked everyone with 662HP in 13, GM never put the LS9 in the ZL1 and soldiered on with the LSA.

Chevy had moved on to the Z/28 with the LS7 by that point (2014). That was the story for gen5's swan song so no interest in improving the ZL1. The mid cycle refresh will come for 2019 and 2020 so its hard to believe there won't be another performance variant to close out gen6. There is a new engine in the ZR1 so that makes the most sense

[NicD]

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

Correct but drivers being equal the ZL1 is still going to wear its tires faster. My point is over an endurance event that 0.4 lap advantage won't be a constant as some people seem to believe.

Oh absolutely there will be variables and nothing is a constant that's for sure.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I can only go based on past history. Corvette got LS1, Camaro got LS1 (Detuned rating),
Corvette got LS3, Camaro got LS3 (Detuned).
CTS-V gets LSA essentially a detuned LS9, Camaro gets LSA With more power,
Corvette no longer uses LS7, Camaro gets LS7
Corvette got LT1, Camaro got LT1,
Z06 got LT4, CTS V got LT4 (Detuned), Camaro ZL1 Gets LT4,

Halo Corvette gets LS9 Camaro never go it

Past history suggests Camaro will only share what is there, but if its for the Halo corvette, it wont get shared. Also if the new LT whatever is F/I that doesn't fit the narrative for a new Z/28

Made some fixes to that since you had them out of order and added the important "detuning era" when the Corvette was protected aggressively. Maybe it still is to some extent but there's clearly a change in the old behaviors.

Also it should be noted the LS9 never appeared in a Vette either. The LSA was developed from groundwork on the LS9 (Yes I know there are major differences but they both represented the first S/C GM engines of the modern era). So maybe a 2019 Camaro won't get the same engine in the new ZR1, but it may get another derivative like the LSA. That definitely fits past history at least. Could end up being a replacement for the LT4 altogether. But I am more interested in rumors of a DOHC NA motor making north of 500hp for the C8. Which is much easier to see trickling down to the Camaro at some point.

Also the LS9 is the only example a halo Vette engine not making it to a Camaro. Even the original LT4 made it's way into a few anniversary Camaros in '97, but again...as the Vette switched to a new engine the LS1.