are toe links worth it

[L99CAMA2011]

Originally Posted by Jaysin

An alignment is required when changing the toe links. The inner bolt is an eccentric adjuster bolt, so you should always have the alignment checked with removing it.

Sorry I forgot to mention, I observed and marked the eccentric bolt in order to maintain alignment, if you don't mark it before moving the bolt then your setting will be lost.

[Pollock]

Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011

Sorry I forgot to mention, I observed and marked the eccentric bolt in order to maintain alignment, if you don't mark it before moving the bolt then your setting will be lost.

So do you really need an alignment or not if you mark the bolts?

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Pollock

So do you really need an alignment or not if you mark the bolts?

If all your replacing is the Toe Control Rod, so long as you mark the bolt you shouldn't need an alignment. If you swap out any part that may change your ride height that will effect your camber and in turn effects toe, it's a good idea to get it checked.

It's not a bad idea to get your alignment checked when doing suspension mods, the 100 bucks for a check is a lot cheaper than a new set of tires... But as long as you are careful with your mark and you're only installing parts that don't effect ride height, you shouldn't need one.

[BMR guy]

Originally Posted by Pollock

So do you really need an alignment or not if you mark the bolts?

This is a grey area. Theoretically you should be able to mark the bolts, install a set of aftermarket non-adjustable toe rods and be good to go. Realistically though there is a lot of slop in the bolt and camber washer when it is loosened. When hooked up to an alignment machine, it is surprising just how much the toe changes from just a little bit of movement. This is why most recommend an alignment afterwards, just to be safe.

[JusticePete]

Tires are expensive and alignments cheap. There is no gray area. You pull a toe link you get an alignment.

Marking a bolt only means you installed the bolt in the same place. So what. Is the new link identical in length center to center on the ferules? You don't know. Was your old link a bit off from the factory and your alignment correspondingly adjusted? You don't know. Did you NEED a toe adjustment before your replaced your link? You won't know unless you took a base line alignment reading.

Do people pull arms and replace them all the time without an alignment. Yes. Is that a best practice. No, Never was. Never will be.

You can put the best suspension parts on in the world. They could be one off custom made from unobtainium by the world's most brilliant engineer. If they are not properly aligned they will not perform properly. Touch your suspension, get an alignment. Period end of story there is no other way to do it right.

Now let's talk about trailing arms and toe links. We worked with the people at GM that built the ONLY in house by GM Grand Am Prototype. It was tracked hard by the EXPERTS at the Milford Proving Grounds. It ran on slicks. It ran on Pedders, KONI and GM OE arms. Not a single OE arm was replaced. Not one. The Pedders USA Camaro was built the same way. It used ONLY Pedders Suspension and 100% GM OE arms. It was tracked by some of the best drivers in the world. Paul Tracy is known to be fast and also known to push equipment to the edge and beyond. We didn't bend a single solitary OE arm. Not one.



To specifically address the OPs question we would all need to know a lot more about the use of his 5th Gen. There is absolutely no reason to replace anything on a daily driver Camaro that sees an occasional pass at the drag strip. The car was built to do that. It NEEDS nothing. Now if the OP wants more we can go from there.

Pollock,

Can you please tell us how you drive your Camaro and what you would like it to do better?

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Tires are expensive and alignments cheap.

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

It's not a bad idea to get your alignment checked when doing suspension mods, the 100 bucks for a check is a lot cheaper than a new set of tires...

What they said. Better to be safe than cussing yourself latter.

[L99CAMA2011]

Also something something I don't agree with, I see factory markings either in green that shows the position for factory alignment. I would prefer to use as thin a pen or I prefer a scriber and a hair thin marking to indicate alignment position. So instead of a marker I prefer to use a sharp object to scribe a line then coat it to prevent rust.

[L99CAMA2011]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Tires are expensive and alignments cheap. There is no gray area. You pull a toe link you get an alignment.

Marking a bolt only means you installed the bolt in the same place. So what. Is the new link identical in length center to center on the ferules? You don't know. Was your old link a bit off from the factory and your alignment correspondingly adjusted? You don't know. Did you NEED a toe adjustment before your replaced your link? You won't know unless you took a base line alignment reading.

Do people pull arms and replace them all the time without an alignment. Yes. Is that a best practice. No, Never was. Never will be.

You can put the best suspension parts on in the world. They could be one off custom made from unobtainium by the world's most brilliant engineer. If they are not properly aligned they will not perform properly. Touch your suspension, get an alignment. Period end of story there is no other way to do it right.

Now let's talk about trailing arms and toe links. We worked with the people at GM that built the ONLY in house by GM Grand Am Prototype. It was tracked hard by the EXPERTS at the Milford Proving Grounds. It ran on slicks. It ran on Pedders, KONI and GM OE arms. Not a single OE arm was replaced. Not one. The Pedders USA Camaro was built the same way. It used ONLY Pedders Suspension and 100% GM OE arms. It was tracked by some of the best drivers in the world. Paul Tracy is known to be fast and also known to push equipment to the edge and beyond. We didn't bend a single solitary OE arm. Not one.



To specifically address the OPs question we would all need to know a lot more about the use of his 5th Gen. There is absolutely no reason to replace anything on a daily driver Camaro that sees an occasional pass at the drag strip. The car was built to do that. It NEEDS nothing. Now if the OP wants more we can go from there.

Pollock,

Can you please tell us how you drive your Camaro and what you would like it to do better?

Yeah Pete but what about flexing, don't the stock toe link flex even with upgraded bushings? Just wondering. I would actually do an actual test by putting upgraded bushings in my stock toe link arms and installing them to see if they are as firm as the aftermarket ones I have right now.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011

Yeah Pete but what about flexing, don't the stock toe link flex even with upgraded bushings? Just wondering. I would actually do an actual test by putting upgraded bushings in my stock toe link arms and installing them to see if they are as firm as the aftermarket ones I have right now.

They will not be as strong as an an aftermarket arm. The question should be can we measure a performance difference and at what potential costs? We know what numbers the car puts up with OE arms. Over 1.4 G peaks with 1.3 sustained on street tires. Could we get 1.32 or 1.38 sustained if we reduced mass and strengthened all the arms... maybe but is it worth it? I spoke with a 5th Gen owner today that kissed a curb. He has after market arms. We have been trying to help him get his car back to normal. He just found out that while his aftermarket arm didn't bend, the bolt in the knuckle bent. Where am I going with this? If you add a stronger arm you make the parts it bolts up to comparatively weaker. Is it better to bend a $1.95 OE toe link or bend the sub-frame bracket it attaches to? We can maintain the balance of the 5th Gen OE suspension and attain ridiculous levels of performance while we maintain fuses to protect it.

We work closely with LPE. They have great trailing arms and toe links for drag cars. They are great parts. Most of the LPE owners that I know running the full range of goodies from Pedders and LPE spend a good portion of thier time at the track. They knew going in what they were doing and why. It all comes down to the use of the car. The function of this forum is to provide the information 5th Gen owners need to make informed choices. I hope this post adds to the knowledge base.

[chopss]

Greatly appreciated info thank you Pete

[toilets]

So where is the line drawn street vs track that you will need new arms and links? Would this be when the car is on the track more than the street? 50/50? Im changing it up a bit and talking about road course and autocross rather than drag.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by toilets

So where is the line drawn street vs track that you will need new arms and links? Would this be when the car is on the track more than the street? 50/50? Im changing it up a bit and talking about road course and autocross rather than drag.

I would say when you switch from DOT legal tires to full slicks and spend more than half your time on track. Dan Howard is a great example.

[blake-b]

You don't have to drop the whole cradle either. You can loosen the back 2 and take the front 2 out. You can also install the bolts backwards when putting it back together so if the need ever arises you need to remove them again, you won't have to drop the cradle at all.

[Scruffage]

Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011

Also something something I don't agree with, I see factory markings either in green that shows the position for factory alignment. I would prefer to use as thin a pen or I prefer a scriber and a hair thin marking to indicate alignment position. So instead of a marker I prefer to use a sharp object to scribe a line then coat it to prevent rust.

I believe those factory markings are just there to indicate the bolt is installed. It has nothing to do with the alignment.