Shno's House of Z

[boxmonkeyracing]

some notes about the ZL1.

Heat soak. . .going to be a huge problem. from what I've seen of dyno pulls and track passes. this car won't last on a road course.

if a stock ZL1 runs 11.9 and you have 4 witnesses, time slip and inside video; no one will believe you. even the SVT guys don't believe the 12.04 stock time because it's only half a slip and no out side video. I'm to the point no amount of evidence will prove this car can hit 11.9. just like all fieros catch fire. this cars rep is tarnished and will have a long way to come back from.

I know the car is capable of hitting that 11.9. good driver, ideal day it will do it.

I still like the ZL1. but I don't think it's the car for me. I want a Z28!

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

some notes about the ZL1.

Heat soak. . .going to be a huge problem. from what I've seen of dyno pulls and track passes. this car won't last on a road course.

Certainly the ZL1 is not immune from heat soak. However, characterizing heat soak as a "huge" problem on a stock ZL1 may not be accurate.

Chevrolet has dedicated significant engineering resources to minimize the effects of heat soak in the ZL1. The results of Chevrolet efforts can be seen in the 24 hour endurance test that Chevrolet conducted on the track with the ZL1. I don't believe that significant heat soak related complaints were registered during the 24 hour endurance test.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/12/c...-24-hour-test/

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

if a stock ZL1 runs 11.9 and you have 4 witnesses, time slip and inside video; no one will believe you. even the SVT guys don't believe the 12.04 stock time because it's only half a slip and no out side video.

Why would anyone care what the "SVT guys" believe or don't believe?

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I'm to the point no amount of evidence will prove this car can hit 11.9. just like all fieros catch fire. this cars rep is tarnished and will have a long way to come back from.

Seriously, equating the ZL1's reputation to the Fiero's?

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Certainly the ZL1 is not immune from heat soak. However, characterizing heat soak as a "huge" problem on a stock ZL1 may not be accurate.

Chevrolet has dedicated significant engineering resources to minimize the effects of heat soak in the ZL1. The results of Chevrolet efforts can be seen in the 24 hour endurance test that Chevrolet conducted on the track with the ZL1. I don't believe that significant heat soak related complaints were registered during the 24 hour endurance test.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/12/c...-24-hour-test/

when was the test run? sept? still warm. but not the dog days of summer. Heat soak will be a huge issue in the south. which is where I plan to live and race. Also those were only 40 min sessions. enduro racing lasts longer.

Why would anyone care what the "SVT guys" believe or don't believe?

Not just SVT guys. People on this forum also.


Seriously, equating the ZL1's reputation to the Fiero's?

I'm equating the reputation. not the actual car. btw I like the fiero. especially with a small block v8 in the back.

[Blizzard]

So i am bout to make a road trip from Good old middle of no where Starkville MS to Boise Idaho. Anyone have any idea on some nice interesting roads and sights to see on my way?

Time is not an issue. Just wish I had a Camaro to do it in.

[Mr. Wyndham]

The heat soak issue is.....curious. Many have it in their best interests to present the stock configuration as "horrible" and "bad"...and none of the cars in shops currently....are broken in.

Bear in mind the car ran the 'Ring in 7:41...lapped VIR numerous times until Aaron achieved a blistering 2:52...and performed admirably in a 24-hour road-course testing. With all these accolades and credits to its name...how can it possibly be as horrible as some are representing it as? My very humble opinion is that it isn't.

[Number 3]

Hmmmmmm road trip. Always fun. Sadly I have no suggestions due to lack of driving where you are going.

Have fun and drive safe.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this but what is heat soak and isn't that what the inter cooler is for? Thanks

Shno's House of Z has no topic. You can ask anything you like, in here -- by the way -- Welcome to the forum!!!

Heat soak, essentially, is referring to the engine transferring heat from the block up towards the intake....in this case - it's up towards the supercharger on the LSA...and since the supercharger is metal, it retains and conducts this heat into where the air is being compressed and into where it's supposed to be cooled down by the intercooler (yes, the intercooler helps cool the air-charge).

Hot air being sucked into the combustion chamber is not good - it lowers the effective power the engine can produce due to physically there being LESS air inside to expand and push the cylinder down. So the goal is to chill the air as much as possible before it enters the combustion chamber. Heat-soak is counter-productive to this goal.

Over several high-rpm/load runs (such as racing or dyno tuning)...there's a lot of heat conducted to the supercharger area...some cars deal with it better than others...Ford improved the 2012 GT500s vastly over their past incarnations, for example.

I'm of the firm belief that these claims of terrible heat-soak and IATs in the ZL1 are.....exaggerated.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Shno's House of Z has no topic. You can ask anything you like, in here -- by the way -- Welcome to the forum!!!

Heat soak, essentially, is referring to the engine transferring heat from the block up towards the intake....in this case - it's up towards the supercharger on the LSA...and since the supercharger is metal, it retains and conducts this heat into where the air is being compressed and into where it's supposed to be cooled down by the intercooler (yes, the intercooler helps cool the air-charge).

Hot air being sucked into the combustion chamber is not good - it lowers the effective power the engine can produce due to physically there being LESS air inside to expand and push the cylinder down. So the goal is to chill the air as much as possible before it enters the combustion chamber. Heat-soak is counter-productive to this goal.

Over several high-rpm/load runs (such as racing or dyno tuning)...there's a lot of heat conducted to the supercharger area...some cars deal with it better than others...Ford improved the 2012 GT500s vastly over their past incarnations, for example.

I'm of the firm belief that these claims of terrible heat-soak and IATs in the ZL1 are.....exaggerated.

And you don't have to look very far for confirmation that cooler air is conducive to more power, any day that is cool at a NASCAR track, you'll hear the announcers talking about the engines producing more HP due to the cooler air. And how well I remember that my '69 Z/28 always ran the best as soon as the roads dried after a cool rain (moist air helps produce better HP also), in fact all of my vehicles run better when it's cool/moist.
Clyde

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The heat soak issue is.....curious. Many have it in their best interests to present the stock configuration as "horrible" and "bad"...and none of the cars in shops currently....are broken in.

Bear in mind the car ran the 'Ring in 7:41...lapped VIR numerous times until Aaron achieved a blistering 2:52...and performed admirably in a 24-hour road-course testing. With all these accolades and credits to its name...how can it possibly be as horrible as some are representing it as? My very humble opinion is that it isn't.

I realize the times. but I'd like to know the temps those days at those tracks. the 24hr test was broken up into 40 min sessions. beyond that information. was it 40 mins. look at data make a tweek send the car back out. or was it 40 mins today. 40 mins the next day. until we equal 24hrs of track testing. hense why I'm still concerned about heat soak.

I'd like to think that every shop is just trying to make their product look better. but in doing so, they are making GM look like they don't know what they are doing. So. . .looking at the private dynos. Heat soak was still an issue.

I do like the ZL1. And there's a reason I won't be buying it. and that's because I do intend to track a car if and when I get a coupe. I'm hoping a Z28 debuts by the time I can get it. with that said. I'm out for the night.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I realize the times. but I'd like to know the temps those days at those tracks. the 24hr test was broken up into 40 min sessions. beyond that information. was it 40 mins. look at data make a tweek send the car back out. or was it 40 mins today. 40 mins the next day. until we equal 24hrs of track testing. hense why I'm still concerned about heat soak.

I'd like to think that every shop is just trying to make their product look better. but in doing so, they are making GM look like they don't know what they are doing. So. . .looking at the private dynos. Heat soak was still an issue.

I do like the ZL1. And there's a reason I won't be buying it. and that's because I do intend to track a car if and when I get a coupe. I'm hoping a Z28 debuts by the time I can get it. with that said. I'm out for the night.

The 24 test took place over 6 days, if memory serves. In many cases - they would do both...send the car out after data-logging and tweaking problems they encounter...and after a few sessions during the day - pull it in until tomorrow.

They would have had to log roughly 4 hours of racing per day.

I tend to stay quiet with regards to after-market marketing...the fact is they have much to gain by presenting the OEM product as inferior...I don't agree with the approach, but I'm in no position to judge - so I don't. And I understand, just like dealer markups...it is what it is.

As a last word...I think the heat-soak "issue" is a victim of this marketing practice. I DO believe it can be improved (as can most anything). I DON'T believe it sucks from the factory...


EDIT: Do the temperatures at the time of those lap times matter a great deal? Heat soak is accumulated. And over those severe conditions of racing...the engine, capable of melting the rear diffuser...won't care what the ambient temps are when generating lots and lots of heat...

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The 24 test took place over 6 days, if memory serves. In many cases - they would do both...send the car out after data-logging and tweaking problems they encounter...and after a few sessions during the day - pull it in until tomorrow.

They would have had to log roughly 4 hours of racing per day.

Yes. My understanding is that six 40 minute track sessions, amounting to a total of 4 hours, were run each day for 6 days.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I tend to stay quiet with regards to after-market marketing...the fact is they have much to gain by presenting the OEM product as inferior...I don't agree with the approach, but I'm in no position to judge - so I don't. And I understand, just like dealer markups...it is what it is.

As a last word...I think the heat-soak "issue" is a victim of this marketing practice. I DO believe it can be improved (as can most anything). I DON'T believe it sucks from the factory...

Agreed. Considering all of the testing and validation that Chevrolet performed on the ZL1, I don't think that the ZL1 in stock form will exhibit "huge" heat soak issues.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Yes. My understanding is that six 40 minute track sessions, amounting to a total of 4 hours, were run each day for 6 days.



Agreed. Considering all of the testing and validation that Chevrolet performed on the ZL1, I don't think that the ZL1 in stock form will exhibit "huge" heat soak issues.

I haven't taken the time to really pay attention in the videos that we've seen, but duplicating airflow on the dyno' through the HE is also something to consider, that is a factor while on the track. I know we've seen some fans blowing, but I don't know how well typical dyno' fans really duplicate racetrack speeds. This might not be as important on the 1320', since there's only the airflow from the radiator fans until the car is moving, and since it's only moving for about 13 seconds, it seems to me dyno' conditions could really have an impact on efficiency.

I know that there are great products out there that would greatly improve the factory offerings, but I also really believe, in stock for, that Team ZL1/CAMARO really did their homework. I belive it is up to the owner to determine the path of performance they want to take the car and really consider what's going to be the most effective for their purpose.

Yeah - an NA Z28 would definately be a better track warrior IMO.

[boxmonkeyracing]

I'm just not convinced that the LSA is up to a real enduro race. 40 min sessions makes me think of HPDE (high performance driving experience). pretty much track days for us common folk. Never mind the fact you have to find a series you can take the magnetic ride into. the LSA is a good engine. just not one that should have been marketed as a road race/track car engine, IMO. I think it will do great once people figure out the best ways to mod it. and I'm sure we'll see some people hitting low 11's with just bolt ons.

Now lets bring on the Z28 for the real road racing. but if the thing doesn't run low 12's stock in the 1/4 then ford fans will have something to say. lol.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I'm just not convinced that the LSA is up to a real enduro race. 40 min sessions makes me think of HPDE (high performance driving experience). pretty much track days for us common folk. Never mind the fact you have to find a series you can take the magnetic ride into. the LSA is a good engine. just not one that should have been marketed as a road race/track car engine, IMO. I think it will do great once people figure out the best ways to mod it. and I'm sure we'll see some people hitting low 11's with just bolt ons.

Now lets bring on the Z28 for the real road racing. but if the thing doesn't run low 12's stock in the 1/4 then ford fans will have something to say. lol.

I think the CTS-V racer is doing alright in whatever series it's entered in...I forget the name. And the engine outlived the LS9 during endurance testing. I DEFINITELY see where you're coming from, don't get me wrong -- and I would tend to agree a N/A car with similar or at least close power would be much more ideal.

But at the same time, I think the LSA gets a bad rap for stereotypical things, some earned, some not so much....

I'll never be entering myself into the 24 hours of LeMans, though...so admirably tackling a few HPDE sessions once or twice a year is the most I'll ever demand of it.