Alignment Help Please

[Jmar]

Hi All,

After lurking/searching for a couple days, I need post this question. Is this front camber so far off that it would be noticeable during an open track day at Waterford Hills? The front pushes quite a bit in RH turns. The car is not a DD and still has the Pirellis on the front.

This is how it was aligned after I installed my trailing arms/toe rods a couple years ago:

Front Left -0.5 Front Right -1.1

The guy that aligned my car asked if I wanted a camber kit and I said "No" thinking that it was a camber plate kit. He told me that this was as good as he could get it since I didn't buy the kit.

I bought a couple adjustment screws at a hardware store today and figured that I could supply them at another shop.


Thanks!

Jeff

[afabry10]

Generally i dont recommend cam kits on gms(waste of money) but in your case it may be beneficial. The cambers are off more than half a degree to the right. RH turns will almost feel like a slide because that tire is "leaning". Negative camber pushes the tire in from the top(popular with stanced cars). Get the kit so that camber can be pushed up to -0.5.

It'll save the tires as well!

[Jmar]

Originally Posted by afabry10

Generally i dont recommend cam kits on gms(waste of money) but in your case it may be beneficial. The cambers are off more than half a degree to the right. RH turns will almost feel like a slide because that tire is "leaning". Negative camber pushes the tire in from the top(popular with stanced cars). Get the kit so that camber can be pushed up to -0.5.

It'll save the tires as well!

According to several posts the car should have enough adjustment on each side without a camber kit. I'm going to assume that the alignment technician didn't have the means/desire to dial in the LH side. I'll see if the set screws will allow some adjustment on the lift today.

[Avalnch]

If your Camaro is not a DD, then max out the negative camber and make them equal left to right. You should not need a camber kit to get -1° in the front. Also, don't get any camber kit bolts other than the Pedders ones.

[Destructo09]

That was BS, I run -2 camber in the front with stock suspensions other than lowering springs.

I could easily get to those numbers if I wanted to also.

Obviously whoever you took it to has no idea how to align a Camaro.

The stock adjustment has quite a bit of room to play with, like said above, if you're doing track with the car then I would just max it out negative. Mine is honestly a DD and I have mine maxed out but I AutoX and track my car, so the wear evens out. If you run a zero toe then the wear on the inside edges should be too bad if you track and AutoX the car. Or of course if it's not a DD I wouldn't worry about the wear either from negative camber.

-2 Negative camber doesn't cause any major wear, toe out is what will really kill your tires.

[Avalnch]

A lowered car will tend to generate more negative camber from the change in the geometry.

[Jmar]

A friend loaned me an "old school" magnetic camber/caster tool that normally goes on the hub of steel wheels. I'll try to make some kind of mount for it and see if I can muster the courage to change it. At least I can see what the current setup is like if I decide to take it to a shop.

[Destructo09]

If you change the camber it will throw off your toe also, so you will probably be better off having a shop adjust it.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by afabry10

Generally i dont recommend cam kits on gms(waste of money) but in your case it may be beneficial. The cambers are off more than half a degree to the right. RH turns will almost feel like a slide because that tire is "leaning". Negative camber pushes the tire in from the top(popular with stanced cars). Get the kit so that camber can be pushed up to -0.5.

It'll save the tires as well!

There is no need for a cam kit. NONE.

Originally Posted by Jmar

Hi All,

After lurking/searching for a couple days, I need post this question. Is this front camber so far off that it would be noticeable during an open track day at Waterford Hills? The front pushes quite a bit in RH turns. The car is not a DD and still has the Pirellis on the front.

This is how it was aligned after I installed my trailing arms/toe rods a couple years ago:

Front Left -0.5 Front Right -1.1

The guy that aligned my car asked if I wanted a camber kit and I said "No" thinking that it was a camber plate kit. He told me that this was as good as he could get it since I didn't buy the kit.

I bought a couple adjustment screws at a hardware store today and figured that I could supply them at another shop.


Thanks!

Jeff

You need to get your car aligned again, because the tech that did your last alignment did not how how to align it and failed to take the time to research it. Find a new alignment shop. Print this post out. Take it with you and talk the manager through it. Tell them you know it will cost more to do the job right, but you are willing to pay to get it done dead nuts on.

The Book of 5th Gen Camaro is getting an update.

http://www.jpssonline.com/the-book-f...-2010-camaro-2

5th Gen Camaro Alignment, Bushing Timing and Torque Specifications

DO NOT USE OFFSET CAMBER BOLTS ON THE 2010 - 2015 5TH GEN CAMARO. The OE clevis bolts are much stronger and the offset bolts are NOT needed with an excellent system installed at the factory.



This is the correct way to adjust front camber on the 5th Gen. One the alignment machine with the clevis bolts loose turning the camber screw tighter (Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosey) will push the knuckle away from the strut. Loosening the camber screw allows the knuckle to fall in toward the strut. It is a 10mm 1.5 pitch thread.





It isn't pretty, but it was laying around the shop so we used it. A bolt this large is ONLY for use on the alignment rack and should be removed before driving.



This is a JPSS style Camber Screw. We recommend using LocTite blue to prevent it from backing out. Note that in this picture you can see the upper hole in the factory strut is elongated for camber adjustment.

On the alignment rack, any 10mm 1.5 pitch bolt will do. The correct way is to use a JPSS style Camber Screw with blue LocTite. Your alignment shop may have a T.O.M.C.A.T. Air-Assisted Multiple Camber Adjustment Tool air bag.



It fits between the wheel and the strut and works in the same way as the camber screw. Inflate (Righty Tighty) the bag to push the knuckle away from the strut or deflate (lefty Loosy) the bag to allow the knuckle to fall into the strut. If they don't, they have a guy that can push or pull on the wheel while they tighten it. Never, ever use offset camber bolts on a Camaro. EVER!

JPSS foundation as a company is more than just a range of bits, we are suspension specialists committed to delivering a JPSS Driving Experience. A lowered vehicle should have a full range of alignment adjustments. The Camaro delivers from Chevrolet with a fixed Castor position. The radius arm bolts into round holes with no available adjustment. Front Camber is adjustable from the factory. There is a threaded hole for front Camber Adjustment Bolt / Screw, but no bolt is installed and no part number is listed by Chevrolet. The rear OEM eccentric adjusters for Toe and Camber provide approximately one degree adjustment range. For an alignment specialist, this is unacceptable. You want to get your Camaro perfectly setup. This is what JPSS is all about. Our solution is a set of Black Magic JPSS Alignment Bolts. While GM made the hole round for the front Castor Adjustment or lack thereof, they did weld in brackets for an eccentric to work against. Your local JPSS Dealer can create a slot to provide Caster adjustment with JPSS Camaro Alignment Bolts. The kit provides the front Camber screws that GM didn't.

For the 5th Camaro, GM decided to produce the front sub-frame with only a round hole, but they kept the 'fences' for caster adjustment with eccentric bolts just like the Pontiac G8 and Holden Commodore. The slots to allow adjustment were lost in translation. For a performance driver, a vehicle without full alignment adjustment capability feels like driving with one hand tied behind your back. JPSS made the decision to make the Camaro front suspension fully adjustable.

Stock Radius Bush Mounting area with a round hole and adjustment 'fences'.




In Step #1 the technician may choose to drill two holes, one on either side of the factory hole before grinding a slot shape. Other techs will just grind the slot.



The eccentric that will be used does not reach all the way to the bracket sides so a bit of excess metal is not an issue. The technician can check the clearance with a JPSS Castor Eccentric Bolt as they grind to make sure the fit is JPSS dead nuts on.



We use black chromate plating on our Camber Bolts. We used a gold tone bolt in this image to make it easier to see.

When assembled the plated eccentric allows the alignment technician to increase or decrease Castor. A well aligned Camaro with good tires will not require ANY BIAS in the alignment. Should your Camaro be tweaked and develop a pull the same JPSS Caster Eccentric Bolts can be used to create a bias to correct the pull. We strongly recommend that before you alter your alignment due to a pull that you have a qualified technician, because the machine is only as good as the tech, check your tires on a road force balance machine to make certain the pull is not induced by a tire. When the tires have been confirmed good, we can make adjustments on the alignment rack.

For those that track the 5th Gen Camaro we have created Black Magic Caster Locks. Using a Caster Lock there is no possibility drift under the most demanding driving conditions. Installation of the Caster Locks is very similar. The slot is ground forward toward the radiator.



There are four Caster Lock plates that are installed on both sides of each radius arm bushing. We used a raw bare aluminum plate for this illustration.



Increasing caster improves straight line stability and the return of the wheels to the on center position. Adding caster to the 5th Gen is highly desirable.

Alignments are JPSS core business. We offer the JPSS Black Magic Caster, Rear Camber and Front Camber Screws. When installing the JPSS Front Camber Screw it is essential that you use LocTite Blue. The Camber screw will never bear a load while driving, but we want to make certain they never vibrate out.



JPSS Rear Eccentrics are virtually bullet proof with 1.8 degrees or double the factory adjustment. With the Camaro alignment Kit installed your Camaro can be setup for the drag strip, road course, auto cross or every day flawless driving. Even better, JPSS alignment eccentric bolts carry a unique warranty feature. Should a JPSS eccentric ever fail while you own the vehicle we will replace it. You get a superior alignment, improved driving experience and a life time warranty with JPSS Camaro Alignment Bolts.

To get the aggressive alignments we prefer JPSS Black Magic Camber and Caster Bolts and Camber Screws are essential. They double the adjustment range . We achieve this result my moving the eccentric to the outer edge of the bolt. The eccentrics are cut on a water jet, assembled in a jig and welded. This is a time consuming process. To finish the bolts we have coated in black chromate.




Taking the performance of your 5th Gen and alignment to the next level requires the use of JPSS Knockout Camber Plates. With the stock front struts or coilovers you can achieve -2.2 Degrees of front camber. Relieving the upper slot in the strut to allows it to fall in a bit more will get you to -2.5. When running high negative camber it is Mission Critical to check spacing between the inner tire sidewall and the strut or coilover. We use a standard #2 lead pencil as a gauge. If the pencil passes between the tire and the strut or coilover you are good to go. With JPSS Knockout Plates we suggest you run them full in, maxed out for negative camber. Positioning the strut top well in toward the engine improves SAI. Your 5th Gen will drive better. Final adjust the negative camber at the knuckle using the camber adjustment screw.

JPSS are a Knock Out by design, construction and function. The bearing plates are made of stainless steel. The hardware is stainless steel. Our bearings are the finest made in America available. Of course none of this matters if they are not the most functional in the industry. It starts with a hard mount system. Some 5th Gen Camaro owners will cringe at the thought of drilling six mounting holes in their strut towers, but most will agree it makes sense when they understand why. We don't want it to move. Period. Anything that clamps in place can move on impact with a pothole or gator-back. Bolted in place, the only way to move a JPSS camber plate is to move the entire strut tower.

JPSS Knock Out Camber Plates deliver 2 full degrees of adjustment. Not 1 degree. Not 1 degree split between caster and camber. 2 full degrees. If you want to add caster, and we highly recommend you do, use our Caster Locks or of Caster Bolts. Camber plates on a 5th Gen Camaro are reserved for Camber and Steering Angle Inclination (SAI).

Steering axis inclination acts, with caster, to provide a self-centering of the front wheels. When the wheels are in the straight-ahead position, the ends of the stub axles are almost horizontal. When the wheels turn to either side, the effect of steering axis inclination is to make the ends of the stub axle tend to move downward, but this is prevented by the wheel. The stub axle carrier then must move up, which raises the front of the vehicle. When the steering wheel is released, the mass of the vehicle forces the stub carrier back down, which pushes the wheels back to a central position.



The SAI angle is created and measured in degrees. It runs from the lower ball joint through the upper ball joint, or on most front wheel vehicles, through the center of the strut mount. The illustration uses ball joints to represent the angle. This measurement of degrees includes the measurement from lower ball joint to the upper ball joint or the upper strut mount and true vertical (the tire actually sitting straight up and down). The SAI angle doesn't include the camber angle. This is because Steering Axis Inclination is a non-adjustable angle.

We recommend using the JPSS Knockout Camber Plates to increase SAI and adjust the majority of camber at the knuckle. Combine this with JPSS Caster Locks to achieve optimal front end geometry and handling.





Bushing Timing

Step 1. Lift the car on a two post lift and raise it.

Step 2. Loosen the following bolts/nuts:
Front:
---Inner Control Arm Bushing
---Inner Radius Rod
Rear:
---Trailing Arm Bushings (both ends)
---Toe Rod Bushings (both ends)
---Lower Control Arm Bushings (Inner)
---Upper Control Arm Bushings (Rearward)
---Lower Strut Bushings

Step 3.
Lower the car and drive it around the parking lot SLOWLY and on to the alignment lift.

Step 4.
With the weight of the car on the wheels tighten all of the nuts/bolts to spec.

Step 5.
Align the car at the new ride height.

Alignment

On the alignment rack the technician must be aware that the rear lower control arm camber adjustment works against the toe link toe adjustment. The toe eccentrics should be set to a neutral position, the eccentric not touching the 'fences' when thee initial camber adjustment is made. Then the technician will work the two for the optimal split of camber and toe values.







Front and Rear Bolt Torque Values





NOTE: Torque specifications that read XX torque value and XX degrees are typically Torque to Yield (TTY) and require replacement of the bolt, nut or both. If replacement parts are not available from GM, the minimum acceptable torque will be those values stated along with a liberal application of a thread locker i.e. LocTite

[Jmar]

JP,

Thank you for the info! I found a shop recommended by a friend, and it's getting aligned today. They charge more but promise to get the specs I want. I'm going with the aggressive street alignment hoping that it will respond to turn in better.

I've noticed lately that the rear wants to steer the vehicle over bumps in the road. I hope this cures that feeling.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Jmar

JP,

Thank you for the info! I found a shop recommended by a friend, and it's getting aligned today. They charge more but promise to get the specs I want. I'm going with the aggressive street alignment hoping that it will respond to turn in better.

I've noticed lately that the rear wants to steer the vehicle over bumps in the road. I hope this cures that feeling.

The looseness over bumps could be the sub-frame bushings or it could be the alignment. Don't forget to ask for a before and after printout. That will help us isolate the reason(s) for the looseness.

[Jmar]

Had the car aligned Wednesday and it's much better. The toe in the rear was too far in causing it to move around in the back over the bumps. That may explain the squirmmy feeling I got at the track in the turns. The alignment specialist was able to get it set to the Pedders aggressive street tune with camber and toe. He couldn't change the caster but it was within factory specs. It's much better over bumps and feels solid at speed. It's too bad that I have to wait a month before the next OTD to test it out.

[JusticePete]

Very cool.

To add caster, use JPSS Black Magic Caster Locks to add 1 degree.

[Jaybird4u]

Help me out please. Car is in the shop for BMR lowering springs and BMR sway bars. BMR has two alignment specs listed. Street performance or Pro performance. 3 out of 4 weekends is low mile driving around town. About once a month I do some aggressive driving with friends on the twisty roads. On those days we push our cars pretty hard. With that being said should I get the street alignment or the professional alignment? Quick response or advice would be appreciated since my car is in the shop as we speak.