C5 Community help needed for Suspension Upgrade

[roccky08]

I really need the help from the community. I have read multiple posts, and websites regarding suspension upgrades ever since I joined and found myself to be more confused. I would like to keep the information simple as I have very limited knowledge of Auto Engineering, and I do not intend to become one either, so save your lengthy explanations. I'm however a Software Engineer and will try to be clear with my requirements. I know I may sound harsh and bossy, but it's intended to be formal and professional and hopefully help another C5 member with similar needs.

REQUIREMENTS:
- Budget: $3,000 Parts +/- $1000.00
- Vehicle: 2010 Camaro LS3 Weekend Driver / City Driving
- Force Induction: None yet.
- Handling: "Free Spirited" Street Driving. Never will I Drag / Street / Track race. I like the idea of "Set and Forget" since I do not have a garage (Condo-Living). But I want something that I can adjust on the fly if I decide to go to the mountains and enjoy the curvy roads. I would really like the car to feel nimble, more responsive and less heavy.
- Comfort: OEM comfort, except when adjusting for "Free Spirited" Street Driving on Curvy Roads.
- Parts: "Best Bang for your Buck". Defined as one of the following: Quality of Finish, Quality of Ride, Quality of Materials and process used. If possible, I would also like to reduce or maintain the OEM Weight of the car.
- Tires / Wheels: No input or suggestions needed. Will be done sometime later.
- Installation: Everything will be installed in one visit, I live alone and dont like to bother my friends to drive me back and forth several times, additionally I will save on installation and alignment costs.
- Shop: Vengenace Racing, due to their good reputation and involvement with both the Camaro community and those in need.
- Vendors: Will be decided once I know what I need.

GENERAL NOTES:
- I have BMR Trailing Arms, Non-Adjustable Toe Rods, some black bushings that I acquired at C5Fest and would like to have them installed. Please consider them before suggesting a kit
- I prefer Kits to simplify my purchases but not required
- I prefer coil overs. See Handling and Comfort Requirements
- Just because my budget is $3,000 +/- 1,000 doesn't mean i want to spend it.

SUPPLIER / VENDORS NOTES:
I am really grateful to have all these great companies compete for customers by providing excellence in quality, service and price . Therefore, I would like for them to maintain their professionalism and keep my needs in mind before theirs.

EXAMPLE SUGGESTION:
- Pedders XA Coilovers
- BMR Front and rear sway bar kit with bushings

Reason: Most change in ride quality and able to have OEM comfort with just a simple adjustment of the Pedders Xa Coil overs.
Price: Around $2,000.00 save the rest for something else

Disclaimer: I'm just guessing here

Thank you again for your help

Edit: Added Nimble, More Responsive and less heavy to my handling requirements

[JusticePete]

Rocky,

You appear to be a prime candidate for an Xa Street. It will address the foundation weaknesses in the ZETA II chassis with Inserts for the radius and sub-frame bushes, provide a wide range of alignment adjustment with a complete set of alignment bolts and of course the benefits of the Xa coilovers. It will be well below you budget for parts.

You will notice I have omitted sway bars. While I am in the business of selling suspension parts, the 5th Gen Camaro is unique. It is such a competent automobile with the mods we already have listed you may find after driving it that there is no need to spend any additional money on sway bars. If after a few weeks or months of driving you do decide to add them there is no duplicate installation work. The allows you to move forward with your suspension modification for less than $2,000.

One other note. When the kit is installed by your Pedders Suspension Specialist there is NO cahrge for shipping. That is just one more reason to use you Pedders Specialist of GM Dealer. Hmmm, in some cases maybe hindreds of reasons.

If you have any questions please feel free to post them here of call the office.

[roccky08]

JusticePete. You nailed it on the kind of answer that I was looking for. Could you please explain a reason why would someone like me consider sway bars as an upgrade from the XA Street? I read about roll, understeer, and oversteer, again I don't know the difference due to lack of experience.

Will the XA Street by itself help my car feel more nimble and more responsive and less heavy? Or do you suggest adding something else?

[Ron@Vengeance]

Roccky,

First I would like to thank you for considering Vengeance Racing for your upgrades. We truly appreciate your good words and look forward to working with you.

That being said, we are an authorized dealer for Pedders/Pfadt Race Engineering/Eibach/BMR and even Hotchkis. We have installed/driven all of the major manufacturers parts/kits to date.. I would be happy to discuss the options available to you. Fee free to give me a call OR stop by the shop and we can go over these options in person.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by roccky08

JusticePete. You nailed it on the kind of answer that I was looking for. Could you please explain a reason why would someone like me consider sway bars as an upgrade from the XA Street? I read about roll, understeer, and oversteer, again I don't know the difference due to lack of experience.

Will the XA Street by itself help my car feel more nimble and more responsive and less heavy? Or do you suggest adding something else?

Rocky,

Just the inserts will make your Camaro more secure. Changing the spring rates, lowering it and changing the damping rates combined with the inserts are transformation. You maintain bound / jounce travel at all heights to preserve ride quality over other methods of lowering with a dramatic increase in control.

Originally Posted by seddon

I had the H&R drop springs for about 3 months, they were good but when I changed to the Xa's it looks alot better, more aggressive drop, and ride a lot better and it set at 12 front and 9 rear. With my 22's it rides very close to stock.

Then you add in sub-frmerame / IRS stability for even more control.

Originally Posted by seddon

I had the H&R drop springs for about 3 months, they were good but when I changed to the Xa's it looks alot better, more aggressive drop, and ride a lot better and it set at 12 front and 9 rear. With my 22's it rides very close to stock.

You can see that we did a front bar only to reduce front lean. As soon as the front settled down JP felt the rear was loose. That is Rear End Step Out and unless sub-frame inserts are installed or the sub-frame bushes replaced it will remain no matter what you do with coils and sway bars. The sub-frame inserts are the lowest hanging fruit on the 5th Gen mod list and that includes power adders.

If you can send me a picture of your front tire shoulders I can give you a good answer on sway bars. While at the Summit Camaro Show I spoke with a lot of people that own 5th Gen Camaros. I showed them my abraded tire shoulders from hard cornering. I asked them to look at their own tire shoulders and those of every 5th Gen at the show to see if they could find people that drive hard in the corners. No one found a single one. Most people that own 5th Gen Camaros fo not push the car to the final 1/10th. What I mean by that is the car has reached the limit of adhesion and you are drifting through the corners at or above 10/10ths. That isn't a precise measurement, but it give you a 'scale' for hard driving. You should NEVER be close to 9/10ths on the street. That is reserved for race tracks.

At about 8/10ths the Camaro starts to push or plow as understeer sets in. The car stops steering and the front end just 'plows' through the turn. If you are not complaining about it with the OE suspension you will never get there once you have Pedderised.

What could you add to the Street Xa package -- sway bars would be the only other element of the upgrade and even those are probably not required as the Xa will dramatically reduce your boy lean and roll making the OE bars more effective.

[BMR guy]

No disrespect but I propose the opposite. I agree with cradle bushing inserts and radius rod bushings. Combined with your other upgrades already on the car you should be good to go, bushing-wise. Where my opinion differs is swaybars. I would do sway bars first then, if you feel like you want more, go the coil-over route. This is a much more economical solution and it's a mod that can be immediately felt. They also do not compromise ride quality and can be installed without effecting the alignment.

I'm not trying to talk you out of coil-overs because coil-overs are definitely the best solution for height and valving adjustability, but they are overkill for most who buy them. With your requirements (not going to track your car) you could realistically install a set of higher rate lowering springs and swaybars and probably be perfectly happy then change the swaybar settings for your "spirited driving".

Of course your budget easily allows for both with money left over. Being a car nut, I personally don't work well within budgets and would probably end up doing both

[JusticePete]

Sway bars are the final tuning elements in any suspension setup. The primary cause of lean and roll in the 5th Gen Camaro is found in ride height, coil rate and damping. The tall ride height creates a high center of gravity. Bringing the ride height down lowers the center of gravity. Reducing coil height reduce the amount of space / coil there is to lean and roll. Increasing coil rate decreases the amount of coil compression which reduces lean and roll. Increasing the damping slows the rate at which the coils expand and contract reducing lean and roll.

Good suspension setup addresses any suspension issues at the source. Adding sway bars to a suspension before the it is dialed in is no different than putting lipstick on a pig. It may look better with the lipstick, but it will never be confused with Megan Fox.

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by roccky08

I really need the help from the community. I have read multiple posts, and websites regarding suspension upgrades ever since I joined and found myself to be more confused. I would like to keep the information simple as I have very limited knowledge of Auto Engineering, and I do not intend to become one either, so save your lengthy explanations. I'm however a Software Engineer and will try to be clear with my requirements. I know I may sound harsh and bossy, but it's intended to be formal and professional and hopefully help another C5 member with similar needs.

REQUIREMENTS:
- Budget: $3,000 Parts +/- $1000.00
- Vehicle: 2010 Camaro LS3 Weekend Driver / City Driving
- Force Induction: None yet.
- Handling: "Free Spirited" Street Driving. Never will I Drag / Street / Track race. I like the idea of "Set and Forget" since I do not have a garage (Condo-Living). But I want something that I can adjust on the fly if I decide to go to the mountains and enjoy the curvy roads. I would really like the car to feel nimble, more responsive and less heavy.
- Comfort: OEM comfort, except when adjusting for "Free Spirited" Street Driving on Curvy Roads.
- Parts: "Best Bang for your Buck". Defined as one of the following: Quality of Finish, Quality of Ride, Quality of Materials and process used. If possible, I would also like to reduce or maintain the OEM Weight of the car.
- Tires / Wheels: No input or suggestions needed. Will be done sometime later.
- Installation: Everything will be installed in one visit, I live alone and dont like to bother my friends to drive me back and forth several times, additionally I will save on installation and alignment costs.
- Shop: Vengenace Racing, due to their good reputation and involvement with both the Camaro community and those in need.
- Vendors: Will be decided once I know what I need.

GENERAL NOTES:
- I have BMR Trailing Arms, Non-Adjustable Toe Rods, some black bushings that I acquired at C5Fest and would like to have them installed. Please consider them before suggesting a kit
- I prefer Kits to simplify my purchases but not required
- I prefer coil overs. See Handling and Comfort Requirements
- Just because my budget is $3,000 +/- 1,000 doesn't mean i want to spend it.

SUPPLIER / VENDORS NOTES:
I am really grateful to have all these great companies compete for customers by providing excellence in quality, service and price . Therefore, I would like for them to maintain their professionalism and keep my needs in mind before theirs.

EXAMPLE SUGGESTION:
- Pedders XA Coilovers
- BMR Front and rear sway bar kit with bushings

Reason: Most change in ride quality and able to have OEM comfort with just a simple adjustment of the Pedders Xa Coil overs.
Price: Around $2,000.00 save the rest for something else

Disclaimer: I'm just guessing here

Thank you again for your help

Edit: Added Nimble, More Responsive and less heavy to my handling requirements

Roccky08,

First and foremost, as any chassis engineer will tell you, sway bars are the fundamental tuning component of the chassis, best bang for the buck, and most effective upgrade to reduce body roll and correct the notorious understeer that the 5th gen is known for. Pfadt has really done the engineering development necessary to completely solve these handling characteristics. This is the correct way to address front and rear roll resistance. Springs are part of the roll resistance equation but you can not increase the spring rate much at all, before getting into the unacceptable street quality range, where the ride quality severely suffers. This is the sole job of the sway bar, to only affect roll characteristics, and not ride characteristics.

Lower center of gravity has virtually nothing to with roll resistance when compared to sway bars, especially with a front Macpherson Strut suspension, like the 2010 Camaro has. This is basic vehicle dynamics. Adding spring rate, again, equates to little added wheel rate (or roll resistance), especially in the rear of the car, due to the motion ratio of the suspension. It is not the first direction you want to pursue, and will only hurt your ride quality if you add enough spring rate to reduce roll a tangible amount.

The benefits of coilovers are huge, and lowering in general is a good idea from a performance standpoint, but not just for reducing roll. That is not the primary effect of lowering a vehicle.

With that said, you should talk to Vengence to see what Ron recommends for your application. A lot of your concerns line up with the philosophy of Pfadt components. The main ones being the quality of parts, quality of materials, reduced weight (or as light as possible), and the "street performance" mindset and goal for your Camaro.

[JusticePete]

Faster than the Pro Touring cars. Faster than many race cars. Faster than last year's posted time, but we can't post that one yet Not a chassis brace to be found ouside of those built in by the GM engineers. Comfortable around town. Documented Performance.

Made for the street and at home on the track.

Pedders Camaro CONTROL and COMFORT.

Originally Posted by 600hp-lpe

I had Pedders Xa's and just upgraded to the Pedders Supercar Coilovers.

I am now spoiled.. I want this "Platinum Ride" quality on all my vehicles. Being able to adjust for various track conditions is another big plus.

I would highly recommend Pedders for your suspension needs.
Their Customer service has been outstanding!

[PQ]

Not to sound like an ass or anything, but if you're not gonna be tracking your car on a regular basis, it really doesn't matter.

And if you're looking for ride comfort as an important factor, get some Pfadt springs and call it a day. It'll lower your car for a good stance just like everone elses does, and it'll feel like stock. Trust me. The sway bars are what made the killer difference. For just over 700.00 I got the ride and handling any street car needs. There is a reason most Corvette guys use Pfadt. And if you ARE gonna track it, I'd want a race engineering company.

Just my opinion.

I am certainly no expert on suspension. I just know that of all of my mods, my suspension stuff has been my favorite and easiest and smoothest investment.

[roccky08]

Thank you JusticePete, BMR guy and PfadtRacing for taking the time to answer my questions, and considering my needs and suggesting and economical route. While an economical route might be a smarter choice, convenience and "set and forget" mentality is more important to me.

Even though one professional opinion and/or experience may slightly differ with others, I can see that you will all agree that my Camaro will benefit from having Coil-Overs, Sway Bars, Craddle and Radius Rod Bushings.

I should have been clear that "Best bang for the Buck" requirement was more in terms of comparing a single performance part from one company with the other hence why I made my decision of doing all 3 mods mentioned in the previous paragraph.

[roccky08]

Originally Posted by PQ

Not to sound like an ass or anything, but if you're not gonna be tracking your car on a regular basis, it really doesn't matter.

And if you're looking for ride comfort as an important factor, get some Pfadt springs and call it a day. It'll lower your car for a good stance just like everyone else does, and it'll feel like stock. Trust me. The sway bars are what made the killer difference. For just over 700.00 I got the ride and handling any street car needs. There is a reason most Corvette guys use Pfadt. And if you ARE gonna track it, I'd want a race engineering company.

Just my opinion.

I am certainly no expert on suspension. I just know that of all of my mods, my suspension stuff has been my favorite and easiest and smoothest investment.

Thank you for your opinion PQ, and no you don't sound like an ass , you too agree that lowering and sway bars made a huge upgrade to your ride handling and comfort. Although, Springs might be the economical route, I really like the flexibility that adjustable coil overs have. I can see myself taking a trip to the mountains in a "comfort" level, and stop before the curvy roads start, adjust and let the fun begin, then adjust back for comfort and take a nice ride back home.

Additionally, force induction will eventually come and having the car ready from the suspension standpoint will be desirable.

[roccky08]

Originally Posted by Ron@Vengeance

Roccky,

First I would like to thank you for considering Vengeance Racing for your upgrades. We truly appreciate your good words and look forward to working with you.

That being said, we are an authorized dealer for Pedders/Pfadt Race Engineering/Eibach/BMR and even Hotchkis. We have installed/driven all of the major manufacturers parts/kits to date.. I would be happy to discuss the options available to you. Fee free to give me a call OR stop by the shop and we can go over these options in person.

Thank you Ron. I will need your experience to help me decide what vendor(s) I should go with from your personal and professional point of view, other suggestions will be welcomed as well. Will you be available this Saturday?

[roccky08]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Good suspension setup addresses any suspension issues at the source. Adding sway bars to a suspension before the it is dialed in is no different than putting lipstick on a pig. It may look better with the lipstick, but it will never be confused with Megan Fox.

: laugh:. Made my day