Dampers 101, and why we chose Penske Racing Shocks

[So Cal Camaro]

My question for Justin and Nathan is you guys spend a lot of time hyping other peoples parts as the best and now your own in production, but I have never seen either of you in a 5th gen on a race track or autocross event....you move from Detroit Speed being the best, now you're hyping Penske. As you know, JRI guys came from Penske and spend a lot of time working with 5th gen guys on set ups, I see JJ regularly at Pro Touring events.

Until you guys actually run your own car with success, why should anyone else follow you guys or further, buy any product you are manufacturing? What exactly are your credentials? I may have missed a post that showed your racing pedigree, design and engineering degrees came from, but so far the only thing I have seen you do is work on your 5th gen that has never been completed. So please enlighten me.

[bannonm]

Originally Posted by So Cal Camaro

My question for Justin and Nathan is you guys spend a lot of time hyping other peoples parts as the best and now your own in production, but I have never seen either of you in a 5th gen on a race track or autocross event....you move from Detroit Speed being the best, now you're hyping Penske. As you know, JRI guys came from Penske and spend a lot of time working with 5th gen guys on set ups, I see JJ regularly at Pro Touring events.

Until you guys actually run your own car with success, why should anyone else follow you guys or further, buy any product you are manufacturing? What exactly are your credentials? I may have missed a post that showed your racing pedigree, design and engineering degrees came from, but so far the only thing I have seen you do is work on your 5th gen that has never been completed. So please enlighten me.

Yeah, I love how they were all about Pfadt when they were in business and even had pictures of a new front end they were using. Then the other day I see a post that IMO implies it was a bad decision for even buying Pedders or Pfadt. "Sounds like that turned out to be an expensive set if you asked me!" Yeah, hindsight is 20-20. Didn't hear that kind of slam when Pfadt was around.

[krusher]

Unfortunately it seems that everyone does this especially vendors which you would look pretty bad saying your previous product is better than your current inventory. As you guys said i am sticking with bmr, detroit speed, and ridetech since they are there to support us. At the same time nate and justin has supported this community and i would definitely try their stuff out are they race proven? Maybe not, but they do a ton of research and once their stuff is proven i bet they will get a ton of buyers.

[bannonm]

Originally Posted by krusher

Unfortunately it seems that everyone does this especially vendors which you would look pretty bad saying your previous product is better than your current inventory. As you guys said i am sticking with bmr, detroit speed, and ridetech since they are there to support us. At the same time nate and justin has supported this community and i would definitely try their stuff out are they race proven? Maybe not, but they do a ton of research and once their stuff is proven i bet they will get a ton of buyers.

Research is not quoting a manufacture's sale brochure. I highly doubt either of them wrote the above based on quantified research of their own.

[AG1LE]

Originally Posted by bannonm

Research is not quoting a manufacture's sale brochure. I highly doubt either of them wrote the above based on quantified research of their own.

Or maybe you should put a cork in it and sit tight until they have a chance to respond to your accusations.

[So Cal Camaro]

Originally Posted by AG1LE

Or maybe you should put a cork in it and sit tight until they have a chance to respond to your accusations.

Fair enough, I don't see it as an accusation, more of his observation but when you hold yourself out as an expert on products as they have, it is fair to ask for credentials to be shared...so we will wait to hear from them...

[Moreno1]

Hey guys, glad this thread has caught some traction... I don't have time for a proper response to some of your comments right now (mid term tomorrow) but I'll post back later.

I will comment that the '101' portion of the thread is based on reading books written by highly regarded figures in racing, as well as through conversation with people that are more knowledgable in this topic than any of us. The OP was completely written by me and was validated (checked for accuracy) by the director of competition at penske. I encourage... No I urge everyone to do their own research... That said nothing I stated here is very deep or controversial. All very general info.

This is not a money making endeavor for us. The "promotion" is too "good" for us to make money off of..

Like I said, I'll comment back later to address some of the other concerns.

[penskeracingshocks]

Hello all, I simply commenting on the above posts to clarify some points.
-Justin Moreno wrote the entire thread himself based off knowledge gained after attending a 2 day shock school at the Penske Factory in Reading PA. My name is Aaron Lambert, Comp Director of Penske Shocks. We are so impressed with what Justin took from our school, and how he looked at what we do as a company, I asked if we can use some of what he wrote in the future. This is perfect real world example of what ANY customer can do. We welcome anyone who wants to learn more about shocks, even if they don't run Penske.
-If anyone would like to look at our credentials as to what we have accomplished, please feel free to ask. I would recommend looking at the past few years in World Challenge, SCCA, and Tudor series to name a few. We aren't big in time attack on Gen5 Camaro's, but we will work with ANY customer willing to put forth the effort, and looking to maximize the performance of any car. Did we specifically work with GM on their "street OEM" Gen5 Camaro No, but we did work with their factory teams in Tudor.
All of our teams CHOOSE to work with us, we don't give product away. ALL our teams, including the Indy Cars, buy Penske.
-To finish, I always tell our customers there is NO one perfect set-up. Every car, drive, and set-up is different, so how can one shock work for everyone. You have to be able to tune and adapt to your environment, that's what we hope to teach, how to adapt to what your application needs.

[Moreno1]

OK, first of all... wow. I honestly didn't think posting a thread like this would induce such a negative tone with some of you. My goal for this thread was to help people. I was genuinely excited about sharing this thread with you guys, but man, the response from some of you is far from encouraging.

Originally Posted by Nick S

Hey Justin & Nathan,
While I'm not disputing Penske's reputation for quality shocks & struts, have they actually spent time doing R&D to find optimal damping rates/spring rates for the 5th Gen Camaro? GM designed the Camaro, had two track based performance packages under their belt (ZL1 and 1LE) and they still spent a year or more refining the damping rates/spring rates on the Z/28. So I would be hesitant to buy a Penske package that may not have had any R&D time devoted to refining the damping/spring rates for the 5th gen Camaro. As I said I am not disputing the fact that Penske builds a top notch product, but putting that top notch product into an application for which it was never designed/developed for doesn't mean you'll get optimal results. So if you have any other info you can share showing how Penske put some R&D time into developing this package specifically for the 5th gen to improve track handling then I think that would go a long ways towards selling this package to people. (unless I missed that part since your original post was pretty long and I may have skimmed over that part).

Also with many of the other aftermarket choices we have had there have always been customer support contacts from these aftermarket choices (Pedder's, Pfadt, Ridetech,etc...) that provide buyers with guidance on best settings, alignments, etc... Does Penske have a person like this to help provide customer education and support if someone were to buy one of these strut packages from you?

These are just a few of the questions/thoughts I had while reading over your very educational post on shocks/struts. I really do appreciate all the technical info you provided on shocks/struts as all that knowledge is obviously applicable regardless of the brand. But the brand name alone doesn't sell me on product. Regardless of brand I still want to see data showing that their product was truly design for my application.

Thanks!

Nick, I appreciate the question, and your tactful approach. Can you elaborate on what kind of "data" you are looking for?

Pratt and miller Z/28.R, GS.R, and many other camaro's that are racing competitively run on penskes, so I would say they are working well with the camaro. Here is a comment Matt Bell made in another thread (I hope you don't mind, Matt)

Originally Posted by MBellRacing

The dampers are Penske. Last year the series had to run AST, Koni before that. They are both great development shocks, but for a top-of-the-line team, Penske is the way to go.

To answer your question "are they designed for the Camaro". I would say yes, and even better, they are designed for you. Like I said in my post, Penske makes custom dampers. They will take input from their buyers, and valve according to what the buyer wants. When you say "optimal", you have to be more specific. Optimal performance, optimal comfort, optimal for road course, optimal for drag, optimal for autoX, optimal for a mix of these aspects, etc... Read any book on suspension and you will realize how suspension is a game of compromise.

Regarding customer support, I noted in my OP that I highly regard their CS. Penske actually even makes an effort to attend race events to support racers in need of help. They have a fleet of mobile shock servicing stations to support this. If you need tuning help, install help, valving help, etc.. they're there for you.

Take a look at this tech sheet that Penske put out, which is extremely helpful for track side tuning (diagnosing, troubleshooting, optimizing) http://www.penskeshocks.com/assets/A...e%20Manual.pdf


Nick, if you'd like, PM me and I'll give you my cell and we can talk about it some more.

Originally Posted by So Cal Camaro

My question for Justin and Nathan is you guys spend a lot of time hyping other peoples parts as the best and now your own in production, but I have never seen either of you in a 5th gen on a race track or autocross event....you move from Detroit Speed being the best, now you're hyping Penske. As you know, JRI guys came from Penske and spend a lot of time working with 5th gen guys on set ups, I see JJ regularly at Pro Touring events.

Until you guys actually run your own car with success, why should anyone else follow you guys or further, buy any product you are manufacturing? What exactly are your credentials? I may have missed a post that showed your racing pedigree, design and engineering degrees came from, but so far the only thing I have seen you do is work on your 5th gen that has never been completed. So please enlighten me.

What is up with your attitude? Am I shoving something down your throat? Your post very clearly aims to discredit me. What did I do to you?

I am a huge fan of DSE and JRI. I regard the DSE crew as some of the most creative guys in the industry. I think DSE makes a great product. We were very close to going with the JRI/DSE package. In fact, I had bought plane tickets to fly out to NC to spend a week with the guys at DSE, but unfortunately there was a last minute schedule change, and we couldnt work it out, so I had to cancel the flight.

I didn't know much about penske because there wasn't much info about them here on the forums. After looking into them a bit, and making some phone calls, I decided we would go with them. My experience with them has been nothing but positive.

So cal camaro, being so quick to throw accusations, you may have missed this part... The whole 'penske' portion of the OP was based on 7 bullet points.

- Domination of the top tier race car market
- Superior technology adapted from F1
- Strong emphasis on user rebuild-ability
- Custom built for the users specific needs
- Customer service/feedback
- Unmatched Quality Control
- Ability to go to their facilities and build YOUR dampers with a Penske technician


I made sure that each of the bullet points were backed up by either data/statistics, or personal experience. Notice I haven't put a section on performance. I made sure not to, because you are right, we haven't got the car running yet, and haven't had a chance to try them out. When we do get the car running, I'll be sure to make a separate post.

We have been working on the project for going on 3 years. Believe me, there isn't a single soul that wants the project to be finished more than Nathan and I do, but we aren't willing to cut corners.

Originally Posted by So Cal Camaro

Fair enough, I don't see it as an accusation, more of his observation but when you hold yourself out as an expert on products as they have, it is fair to ask for credentials to be shared...so we will wait to hear from them...

Wait a second... when have I ever said I was an expert?

'credentials'
21 year old mechanical engineering student currently taking 16 units at UCSD.
Part of FSAE team at UCSD where we build a formula race car for an autocross comp from scratch every year. My passion is suspension dynamics, and that is where I focus my efforts. I am a car guy. I have been going to car shows since I was 4. I developed my camber plates because I saw there was none on the market and people wanted them. I wanted to help out. I did not do this for money, I did it because I enjoyed it.I have spent a very large amount of money in the R&D of my product, and I will be surprised if I break even. My product has been tested via FEA, and real world. I will stand behind my product.

Originally Posted by bannonm

Yeah, I love how they were all about Pfadt when they were in business and even had pictures of a new front end they were using. Then the other day I see a post that IMO implies it was a bad decision for even buying Pedders or Pfadt. "Sounds like that turned out to be an expensive set if you asked me!" Yeah, hindsight is 20-20. Didn't hear that kind of slam when Pfadt was around.

I loved both pfadt and pedders. They were both great resources for information. We have never made a negative comment about either of them. I was very disappointed for both companies when they went under. You are taking nathan's comment out of context. The comment was only a reiteration of what the previous poster said, that penske is around for the long run.

Originally Posted by bannonm

Research is not quoting a manufacture's sale brochure. I highly doubt either of them wrote the above based on quantified research of their own.

Why are you making such an effort to discredit me?

Originally Posted by penskeracingshocks

Hello all, I simply commenting on the above posts to clarify some points.
-Justin Moreno wrote the entire thread himself based off knowledge gained after attending a 2 day shock school at the Penske Factory in Reading PA. My name is Aaron Lambert, Comp Director of Penske Shocks. We are so impressed with what Justin took from our school, and how he looked at what we do as a company, I asked if we can use some of what he wrote in the future. This is perfect real world example of what ANY customer can do. We welcome anyone who wants to learn more about shocks, even if they don't run Penske.
-If anyone would like to look at our credentials as to what we have accomplished, please feel free to ask. I would recommend looking at the past few years in World Challenge, SCCA, and Tudor series to name a few. We aren't big in time attack on Gen5 Camaro's, but we will work with ANY customer willing to put forth the effort, and looking to maximize the performance of any car. Did we specifically work with GM on their "street OEM" Gen5 Camaro No, but we did work with their factory teams in Tudor.
All of our teams CHOOSE to work with us, we don't give product away. ALL our teams, including the Indy Cars, buy Penske.
-To finish, I always tell our customers there is NO one perfect set-up. Every car, drive, and set-up is different, so how can one shock work for everyone. You have to be able to tune and adapt to your environment, that's what we hope to teach, how to adapt to what your application needs.

Thanks Aaron! See you at SEMA

Justin Moreno

[hammdo]

Remember, 'No good deed goes unpunished'. Appreciate the info!

-Don

[1sick_eg]

I thought it was pretty well known that Penske was simply the best when I came to suspension. You will pay for it though, but if you're looking to put down the best times around a course, they will fare you well.

edit: Justin/Nathan, can you pm me a price on a set?

[woodside783]

roadster shop is building the new camaros now WOW

[AG1LE]

Please PM me when your box isn't full

[Moreno1]

Originally Posted by AG1LE

Please PM me when your box isn't full

Sorry about that, should be good now.