Alignment Issues...Should I be pissed? - Page 2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

blazzin1 · 04-19-2011, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capthowdy

I am sure they did not even know that you had coilovers on her...they just assumed that they were the stock shocks and went to grinding....DOH!....

Nope, I told them when I dropped off the car that I had just installed aftermarket Coilovers. I even brought them the spanner wrenches in case they felt the ride height needed adjustment. And, at some point, they went online to the Pfadt website to print out the info on the Camber Plates. So they knew very well that the Coilovers were not stock.

BMR guy · 04-19-2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazzin1

Thanks for the explanation BMR Guy. I must have had the "before" numbers in that previous post when you first read it, it's fixed now, and the front Camber reading are more in line with what I requested. But now I'm even more pissed that they would elongate the holes on my $2100 Coilovers without asking!!! I'm just so shocked that they would not even call me first. I don't know what the heck I can do about it now?!?!? Any suggestions, or just deal with it???

I can't imagine that they went too crazy with it. The mounts are stout enough to allow for this whether it was necesarry or not. With the bolts tightened down over the holes, you'll never even see what they did. In the end, the alignment specs you posted look pretty good so they got the specs you wanted, I just don't understand why they needed to open up the slots further to get them. If it was me in your situation I would be a little annoyed (and confused) but would probably let it go, move past it and start enjoying my new suspension!

fargomike · 04-19-2011, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazzin1

United Automotive behind the new J.L. Beers on 13th Ave. They were recommended to me for a "performance" alignment from the guys at TintMasters. Obviously now, I would not recommend them!!

Oh crap , they were reccomended to me by them as well .

Avalnch · 04-20-2011, 12:15 AM

Why would they have to drill out the strut mount holes? The Pfadt coilovers already have an elongated upper clevis hole that allows for camber adjustment.

blazzin1 · 04-20-2011, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avalnch

Why would they have to drill out the strut mount holes? The Pfadt coilovers already have an elongated upper clevis hole that allows for camber adjustment.

Yeah, I know. I remember seeing these elongated holes when I installed the Coilovers, and thinking to myself there sure was a lot of strut movement when the bolts were loosely installed, and then realizing it must be for Camber adjustment. I am waiting to hear back from Pfadt about this, I'm sure they will know exactly how much adjustment is possible with their Coilovers. I did request -1.2 deg Camber in the front. If this shop did not need to elongate these holes and did so anyway, then I'm going to raise hell.

PfadtRacing · 04-20-2011, 11:04 AM

Wow.

Well, 1.2 degrees negative camber is very achievable within the stock adjustment range, and there isn't a reason why they should have needed to grind out those holes. That piece is actually double layered steel and depending on how much is ground off there probably isn't much practical change in longevity or performance. Since the strut it's self is sealed there isn't any performance degridation from what they've done here within the strut it's self.

Overall, their actions are clearly heavy handed and it's something we would be irked about given the lack of phone call. It also speaks volumes to their quality of work considering it's not particularly difficult to achieve those camber numbers without modification to the strut. Although keep in mind it's not effecting the performance of your shocks, and in practical application will probably not be noticed. Go out and enjoy the new suspension!

blazzin1 · 04-20-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

Wow.

Well, 1.2 degrees negative camber is very achievable within the stock adjustment range, and there isn't a reason why they should have needed to grind out those holes. That piece is actually double layered steel and depending on how much is ground off there probably isn't much practical change in longevity or performance. Since the strut it's self is sealed there isn't any performance degridation from what they've done here within the strut it's self.

Overall, their actions are clearly heavy handed and it's something we would be irked about given the lack of phone call. It also speaks volumes to their quality of work considering it's not particularly difficult to achieve those camber numbers without modification to the strut. Although keep in mind it's not effecting the performance of your shocks, and in practical application will probably not be noticed. Go out and enjoy the new suspension!

Pfadt, thank you for your response, and the PM you sent me. I will definitely take all your advice into consideration. However, as you mentioned in your PM, if for some reason that mount bracket (where they drilled) was to fail, Pfadt will not warranty the item!!! This brings up another issue now, they have in effect nullified the "full" warranty on my brand new Coilovers!!! I know the chances of a failure are slim, but in my mind it is the principle of the matter.
I am going to go talk to them today, and we'll see what kind of resolution they propose. In my opinion, I really think I would be justified in requesting new Coilovers!!!

Hess Motorsports · 04-20-2011, 12:08 PM

From our experience with the Pfadt coil overs, they have enough range to handle any camber request. That being said, GM put the awesome threaded hole right in the upright so adjusting camber is a breeze. As for caster, they are correct in that regard but your specs sound about right and even have you a bit more positive on the right side to help with road crown. Some of the chassis we have seen are way out right from the factory so consider yourself lucky there.

All in all its an ok alignment per your specs given. I wouldn't have run toe in front, toe out rear and with an almost nuetral front tow it might wander a bit but to each there own. Depending on what you paid, they should have spent the time to get it perfect. No alignment leaves here unless each side is EXACT to either our settings or what the customer specifically asks for. And that even means exact on the toe as well down to the 0.01" of a degree.

Just a quick question, did they compensate for your driver weight when they performed your alignment or did they just set it up sans driver? Believe it or not that can make a big difference.

blazzin1 · 04-20-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hess Motorsports

From our experience with the Pfadt coil overs, they have enough range to handle any camber request. That being said, GM put the awesome threaded hole right in the upright so adjusting camber is a breeze. As for caster, they are correct in that regard but your specs sound about right and even have you a bit more positive on the right side to help with road crown. Some of the chassis we have seen are way out right from the factory so consider yourself lucky there.

All in all its an ok alignment per your specs given. I wouldn't have run toe in front, toe out rear and with an almost nuetral front tow it might wander a bit but to each there own. Depending on what you paid, they should have spent the time to get it perfect. No alignment leaves here unless each side is EXACT to either our settings or what the customer specifically asks for. And that even means exact on the toe as well down to the 0.01" of a degree.

Just a quick question, did they compensate for your driver weight when they performed your alignment or did they just set it up sans driver? Believe it or not that can make a big difference.

Eric, thanks for your input. They did say when I walked in the door that they had a "heck of a time" getting my alignment done, and they basically had to reaccomplish it three times in order to get it where it is. Unfortunately, Fargo ND is not well known for it's abundance of performance shops!!! In fact, I am not aware of ANY in our local area. Believe me, I wish I had that option around here. I cannot say whether they actually compensated for driver weight, I am going to assume not (as they never asked me what I weighed). They charged me $150 for this alignment, which included $80 for "Custom Labor" (drilling out my Coilover mounts). I'm still not sure how far I should take this, but I'm still pissed!!! I think I should take some cool-off time before confronting them.

67motorcat · 04-20-2011, 12:25 PM

One more reason I never ever "Drop my Car off" to get anything done.

I'm always right there watching their every move

Lesson learned and as stated your car will be fine this time

Hess Motorsports · 04-20-2011, 12:32 PM

Honestly, the alignment is pretty decent. Even without driver weight. The price is actually fairly cheap considering we charge $189 for our alignments and that's just a starting point! Don't even ask what we charge to set up a World Challenge car!

As for your struts, i would have to agree with Pfadt. Structurally they should be totally fine for the life of the units. There is no way they could damage the actual function of the damper and the housing itself is MORE than strong enough to remove an 1/8" of material (all that is needed 99% of the time) to get that extra bit of adjustment they say they needed. Talk to them and see what they are willing to do but a new set of front struts isn't needed or warranted in this case.

As another member said, they did something that is a normal practice at smaller alignment shops and I beleive they were trying to go the extra mile for you by getting it right to your requested specs. Now it's time to go out and enjoy your new set up and haul some a$$ around a few turns!

blazzin1 · 04-20-2011, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hess Motorsports

Honestly, the alignment is pretty decent. Even without driver weight. The price is actually fairly cheap considering we charge $189 for our alignments and that's just a starting point! Don't even ask what we charge to set up a World Challenge car!

As for your struts, i would have to agree with Pfadt. Structurally they should be totally fine for the life of the units. There is no way they could damage the actual function of the damper and the housing itself is MORE than strong enough to remove an 1/8" of material (all that is needed 99% of the time) to get that extra bit of adjustment they say they needed. Talk to them and see what they are willing to do but a new set of front struts isn't needed or warranted in this case.

As another member said, they did something that is a normal practice at smaller alignment shops and I beleive they were trying to go the extra mile for you by getting it right to your requested specs. Now it's time to go out and enjoy your new set up and haul some a$$ around a few turns!

Eric, Thanks again for your very experienced advice. I think what I am going to do is request "something in writing" from them stating that they will 100% replace the Coilover Strut assemblies (free of charge to me) IF they fail in any way related to the elongated strut mounting holes. And I am going to request a full refund of the alignment charge, based on the principle that they should have at least called and asked before altering my car. Sound fair?

Hess Motorsports · 04-20-2011, 07:11 PM

Coming from another shop, I would say that sounds fair to you but from their perspective, they did what they thought they had to do to get the job done right for you. Your letter you want is a great idea and saves you from any costs incurred at a later date that may arise from this issue, but at the end of the day, they did perform a service for you that gave you the desired results, using aftermarket parts, albeit with "slight" modifications.

Good luck on this issue and let us know how it turns out. I am sure everyone is interested to hear the outcome as well.

blazzin1 · 04-20-2011, 09:42 PM

Well, I went and had a talk with the manager today after work. Surprisingly, I was able to stay fairly calm and the discussion remained professional. He said he understood my concerns and he admitted that they definitely should have called before drilling anything on my car. I think he finally grasped the consequences of their actions when I told him that by making modifications to my brand new $2100.00 Coilovers, he basically voided the warranty on them (if anything happened as a result of their elongated holes). He said he will need to speak to the district manager to get it approved, but he doesn't foresee any problems with giving me a letter of warranty to guard against any future complications with the modifications they made. Plus, as compensation for this incident he is going to try to get me a refund of the $150 alignment charge. I have my doubts if that last part will happen (as he didn't seem real happy about that one!), but we'll see what happens. I'll let ya'll know what happens as I hear more.

Thanks to everyone for all the terrific advice.

04-20-2011, 12:15 AM	#18
Avalnch Drives: Rally Yellow Camaro+Avalanche Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,110	Why would they have to drill out the strut mount holes? The Pfadt coilovers already have an elongated upper clevis hole that allows for camber adjustment. __________________ Vengeance Kaotik Cam, C.A.I., ARH LT, Pypes Cat Back, ZL1 Shifter+2012LS3VERT bushing, Quantum Brake Ducts, JDP Tow Hook Scorch Yellow Trim Kit, Shark Fin, AAC DRLs+ABLs+SMDs, ZTA Rear Spoiler, R.Y. 1LE Splitter. Pfadt coilovers, camber plates, trailing arms, Pegasus Solid Subframe. Pedders ZL1 barz, radius arm & steering rack bushings. BMR adjustable toe-rods. Hotchkis Max Chassis Brace. ZL1 GMPP Driveline Upgrade. TurnOne P/S pump. CTS-V 6 pistons. 447 HP @ 6180 RPM / 418 TQ @ 5100 RPM

04-20-2011, 12:25 PM	#24
67motorcat Blown Cool Breeze Drives: 2011 Black on Black 2SS M6 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pinehurst NC Posts: 1,027 View My Garage	One more reason I never ever "Drop my Car off" to get anything done. I'm always right there watching their every move Lesson learned and as stated your car will be fine this time __________________ 2011 Black on Black 2SS M6 Had a 2010 IBM 2SS M6 Enjoy life.Think of all the women on the Titanic who passed up dessert.

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04-20-2011, 11:04 AM	#20
PfadtRacing Drives: 2010 Camaro, 2006 Z06 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 3,370	Wow. Well, 1.2 degrees negative camber is very achievable within the stock adjustment range, and there isn't a reason why they should have needed to grind out those holes. That piece is actually double layered steel and depending on how much is ground off there probably isn't much practical change in longevity or performance. Since the strut it's self is sealed there isn't any performance degridation from what they've done here within the strut it's self. Overall, their actions are clearly heavy handed and it's something we would be irked about given the lack of phone call. It also speaks volumes to their quality of work considering it's not particularly difficult to achieve those camber numbers without modification to the strut. Although keep in mind it's not effecting the performance of your shocks, and in practical application will probably not be noticed. Go out and enjoy the new suspension!

04-20-2011, 12:08 PM	#22
Hess Motorsports Account Suspended Drives: 2010 SS with WAY TOO MANY MODS Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 128	From our experience with the Pfadt coil overs, they have enough range to handle any camber request. That being said, GM put the awesome threaded hole right in the upright so adjusting camber is a breeze. As for caster, they are correct in that regard but your specs sound about right and even have you a bit more positive on the right side to help with road crown. Some of the chassis we have seen are way out right from the factory so consider yourself lucky there. All in all its an ok alignment per your specs given. I wouldn't have run toe in front, toe out rear and with an almost nuetral front tow it might wander a bit but to each there own. Depending on what you paid, they should have spent the time to get it perfect. No alignment leaves here unless each side is EXACT to either our settings or what the customer specifically asks for. And that even means exact on the toe as well down to the 0.01" of a degree. Just a quick question, did they compensate for your driver weight when they performed your alignment or did they just set it up sans driver? Believe it or not that can make a big difference.

04-20-2011, 12:32 PM	#25
Hess Motorsports Account Suspended Drives: 2010 SS with WAY TOO MANY MODS Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 128	Honestly, the alignment is pretty decent. Even without driver weight. The price is actually fairly cheap considering we charge $189 for our alignments and that's just a starting point! Don't even ask what we charge to set up a World Challenge car! As for your struts, i would have to agree with Pfadt. Structurally they should be totally fine for the life of the units. There is no way they could damage the actual function of the damper and the housing itself is MORE than strong enough to remove an 1/8" of material (all that is needed 99% of the time) to get that extra bit of adjustment they say they needed. Talk to them and see what they are willing to do but a new set of front struts isn't needed or warranted in this case. As another member said, they did something that is a normal practice at smaller alignment shops and I beleive they were trying to go the extra mile for you by getting it right to your requested specs. Now it's time to go out and enjoy your new set up and haul some a$$ around a few turns!

04-20-2011, 07:11 PM	#27
Hess Motorsports Account Suspended Drives: 2010 SS with WAY TOO MANY MODS Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 128	Coming from another shop, I would say that sounds fair to you but from their perspective, they did what they thought they had to do to get the job done right for you. Your letter you want is a great idea and saves you from any costs incurred at a later date that may arise from this issue, but at the end of the day, they did perform a service for you that gave you the desired results, using aftermarket parts, albeit with "slight" modifications. Good luck on this issue and let us know how it turns out. I am sure everyone is interested to hear the outcome as well.

04-20-2011, 09:42 PM	#28
blazzin1 Drives: 2010 2SS/RS R6P Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: St. Cloud, FL Posts: 4,845 View My Garage	Well, I went and had a talk with the manager today after work. Surprisingly, I was able to stay fairly calm and the discussion remained professional. He said he understood my concerns and he admitted that they definitely should have called before drilling anything on my car. I think he finally grasped the consequences of their actions when I told him that by making modifications to my brand new $2100.00 Coilovers, he basically voided the warranty on them (if anything happened as a result of their elongated holes). He said he will need to speak to the district manager to get it approved, but he doesn't foresee any problems with giving me a letter of warranty to guard against any future complications with the modifications they made. Plus, as compensation for this incident he is going to try to get me a refund of the $150 alignment charge. I have my doubts if that last part will happen (as he didn't seem real happy about that one!), but we'll see what happens. I'll let ya'll know what happens as I hear more. Thanks to everyone for all the terrific advice.