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Old 01-29-2014, 05:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banter View Post
Understeer is when you are going into a turn, you turn the wheel and your car doesn't follow the tires and keeps going forward more rather than turning. Much like over steer, there are varying degrees/severity (worse case scenario your car keeps going completely straight) to it but that's the jist of it. Very prevalent in FWD and AWD cars due to the from wheels being fed the power while cornering, but it can happen in RWD cars too (generally from trying to carry too much speed into a corner). No benefits to it at all.

Oversteer is when the rear end slides out during a turn. Generally when you try to put too much power down through a turn and don't have enough grip or downforce so it breaks the tires loose. It can be fun or used to get yourself out of an understeer situation.

Generally both of these come from a lack of grip and/or downforce through a corner. Larger tire sizes increase the contact patch with the road therefore increasing grip.

Thxs for the explanation I was always curious about the difference between the two steers. I definitely suffer from oversteer. :(


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Old 01-29-2014, 05:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Normagene View Post
Like with anything in life, the more times you do it the better you get at it. I was coming up to an intersection and the light turned yellow, temps were only in the hi 40s, so I had very very little grip needless to say. I was doing about 40/45 coming into the turn and sure enough I started sliding sideways, understeer, the front wheels just wouldn't track. And of course there just happened to be this huge concrete wall that just kept coming closer and closer! I let off which helped bring the weight to the front and I was just a foot or two at most from taking out the entire passenger side. That got the heart pumping. Problem was I had done that same turn many times in temps closer to 70 which made the tires stick like glue. A ZL1 in Cold temps guarantees under/oversteer!
Normagene i know what that feels like, glad you didnt damage the ride. Im no slosh behind the wheel just trying to understand whats happening goes a long way in solving or dealing with the issue.

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+1

Over the weekend I was working on 90° turns and gears. Depending on length of turn and bank, paddle down to third, ~3,000-3,500 rpm 60-65mph with stock 3.27 rear gear. FE3 suspensions are notorious for under steer, anyway, I'm into a right turn that has a decreasing radius and I could literally feel all the push going to the left front tire as I turned the steering wheel sharper, understeer = push.

Pfadt FE4 conversion with ZL1 spec sways in the near future.
SSenior I got courageous on a on ramp one day just to see and it shock me how well it was holding until it broke loose in the middle of the turn!


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Originally Posted by 130R View Post
I've never driven one, so I don't know. That said, despite going to a square setup and complimentary sway bars (and spring rates?), I would expect the 1LE to have less understeer than an SS, but I would expect it to still have some understeer built into it; it's just a safer characteristic for most drivers.

I'd like to clear up something someone else said earlier. Oversteer does not imply too much throttle. Though getting on the gas too early, or giving it too much gas on corner exit (or both) can induce oversteer, that is separate from an oversteering characteristic of a vehicle.

Look at it this way, if you were on a skid pad of fixed diameter and slowly increased your speed around the circle, at some point the car will start to understeer or oversteer. This is obviously a mid-corner characteristic, and completely different from inducing an oversteer condition with too early, or too much throttle (or other poor driving habits).

The natural, mid-corner design characteristic of the car can be altered through a number of methods including: tire pressures, spring rates, sway bars & alignment. Shock settings can be used to alter turn-in and corner exit characteristics.
130R That makes sense, speed induce at some point its going to give way. I guess i have to learn what the car like for speed in the corner. Good info thanks
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Old 01-29-2014, 05:47 PM   #17
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I recently put new rims on my 2011 1LT and noticed that on some corners I get a good amount of under steer. How do I correct this? Never had it occur with the previous set.
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Old 01-29-2014, 06:18 PM   #18
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There are two causes for oversteer, and the correction for each of them is very different.

You can get oversteer by entering a corner slowly and then applying throttle on a rear wheel drive car. In this case, you can correct the oversteer by lifting throttle or with opposite lock (steering opposite the direction of the turn). This is the kind of oversteer that is considered fun - and is what drifting is all about.

The second kind of oversteer is responsible for getting cars wrapped around trees. This happens when you enter a corner too fast. What happens is that your 4 tires are gripping the road, but the driver panics and lifts off the gas. When the lift happens, weight transfers from the rear wheels to the front. The lighter load on the rear wheels causes them to lose grip, and the back end very quickly comes around and swaps places with the front of the car. The best thing to do here is to avoid the situation. And if you find yourself in a turn faster than you want to be, you need to drive through it and resist the urge to lift the throttle when you are at the limit.
wadeh ok i'm starting to get it, it sound like careful application of throttle at the right moment will keep the car stable. Thanks man

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Originally Posted by Egon View Post
You can also think of it like this. Understeer is a behavior when your front wheels are losing traction, and oversteer is when your rear wheels are losing traction. When your front wheels lose traction the car will tend to “push” forward in a straight line and to correct it you will have to increase your rate of turn just like when you see people driving on icy roads and they are turning the wheel to full lock but the car is moving in a straight line instead. When your rear wheels are losing traction the rear of the car will tend to swing around and your rate of turn will increase much faster than you intended just like if you were doing doughnuts in a parking lot. The oversteer condition can be initiated by adding power as when a drifter is going around a corner, they intentionally break the rear wheels loose. This is also why many people will refer to it as steering with the throttle. If you are not turning fast enough, add gas and the rear will swing out more causing you to turn sharper. (or cause you to spin out) The 1LE is intentionally set up to be as close to neutral as possible but I would assume as others have mentioned here there is probably some light understeer/push built into it at the limits since that condition is usually safer than an oversteer condition.
Egon Thanks makes sense i watch the vids here of the guys tracking there rides and i see but i just didn't get it thanks

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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
That's power-on or throttle oversteer, which is a specific means of getting oversteer through intentional driver input. Not what the chassis inherently wants to do otherwise.


The guy cranking on the track bar adjustment may be making it either tighter (more understeerish) or looser (less understeerish toward but probably not all the way into oversteerish), you just don't know unless you know which way cranking the adjuster does which.

In strict SAE terms, understeer is when the front tires are running at larger slip angles than the rear tires are, and the front of the car sort of slides toward the outside a little more than the rear does. It's not exactly sliding like you would on the snow (that much of the Eastern part of the country has been getting) with locked brakes, but it isn't 100.00% pure rolling either. Oversteer is obviously when the rear wants to slide a little wider than the front (and it doesn't take a whole lot of the rear running wider to get your attention).




The 1LE has what most authorities would call "light understeer" or perhaps mild or minimal understeer. Basically it's closer to neutral than the SS it comes from or the LS/LT/ZL1. "Neutral" is where the front and rear slip angles are equal and neither end of the car wants to run wider than the other.

Although neutral sounds like a good place to set up at, it's generally too touchy for most people to drive because it's too easy for them to unintentionally to dip too far into oversteer than they are comfortable with or can even cope with at all. Only a little throttle will instantly move a near-neutral steer car well into oversteer (power oversteer, actually). In the case of a ZL1 on cold G:2's make that a tiny amount of throttle. The mechanism here is that the rear tire slip resulting from acceleration effectively steals grip from cornering and causes the rear slip angles to increase. It's how you can snap a RWD car around in gentle donuts in the snow with just a light touch on the gas (did a few of those today myself in the deserted neighborhood pool parking lot practicing a little toss and catch).

Even gentle throttle inputs can change the amount of understeer. As noted earlier, just lifting off the throttle will transfer a little load forward. This reduces front slip angles - and increases the rear ones, both effects working to reduce the understeer.


It's a fascinating topic.
Norm
Norm P Man i think I open pandoras box! I see its not simple to understand every aspect that take place to get a car around a turn! wow thanks. I did drag racing for a few year and it was fun. Now i want drive! I was alway impress with the tossing of a car around a road corse. i Like how Boris Said used to do when he ran the road course that nascar ran back then. I also like the vid of the new z28 running in Germany! Hitting the turns at some of the speeds i saw was sick!
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:52 PM   #19
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Normagene i know what that feels like, glad you didnt damage the ride. Im no slosh behind the wheel just trying to understand whats happening goes a long way in solving or dealing with the issue.

Practice makes perfect! I spend like an hour one day in this closed trucking parking lot, plenty of room to make the donuts, and just had some fun. I took her up to 50 or so and cut the wheel as fast and hard as I could with throttle. Result; she didn't even attempt to turn until I let off the throttle. Then after a few donuts I tried while in the turn to "flick" the steering and purposefully swing out the ass end, oversteer, and power slide thru the turn! Fun Fun Fun!!!!!......

Try and find a place where you can safely do some maneuvers and practice different responses.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:08 PM   #20
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^^^they said it already...

Oversteer: The rear of your car slides out while turning...kinda like drifting.

Understeer: You're turning your steering wheel and your car just takes forever to turn..making you miss your cornering attack and lose time.

*I used to race for Marlboro (non-US) before so I know.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:10 PM   #21
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As far as car terminology goes, it's amazingly straight-forward. I think people over-think the concept frequently.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Normagene View Post
Practice makes perfect! I spend like an hour one day in this closed trucking parking lot, plenty of room to make the donuts, and just had some fun. I took her up to 50 or so and cut the wheel as fast and hard as I could with throttle. Result; she didn't even attempt to turn until I let off the throttle. Then after a few donuts I tried while in the turn to "flick" the steering and purposefully swing out the ass end, oversteer, and power slide thru the turn! Fun Fun Fun!!!!!......

Try and find a place where you can safely do some maneuvers and practice different responses.
Normagene that sound like you were tearing it up. Hope you have some video! I want to try a track where i could bang some gear and live the dream.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:36 PM   #23
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Every freakin time I think I have this straight in my mind I talk myself in circle and get confused, or maybe that's brain under steer, or over steer of the brain?

Eagle 1,
What they had us doing was going in a circle on the skid pad as tight to the cones as possible and then accelerating slowly once tight. The car will go in a bigger and bigger circle as you accelerate and then we were told (via walkie) to lift off the gas and the car comes back in tight really fast with no additional steering input. As we got use to it we learn to modulate the tightness of the circle with just the gas pedal. Really cool stuff to learn and I'm a big advocate of investing in your own driving ability before modding because a good driver can kick my butt regardless of all my horsepower.

Sorry if I'm confusing the question but the terminology just confuses me but when I'm behind the wheel it makes sense
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 130R View Post
You're describing the same thing here… Understeer.

When the car isn't turning and requires more and more steering input, the car isn't turning enough, or "understeering". This is the same as the car pushing forward, or to the outside of the road as you put it.

Oversteer is when the car turns more than the steering input, requiring less, or even counter-steer to get the car to follow the intended path.


You can look at it this way: if you have to add more steering, the car is understeering. If you have to reduce steering, the car is oversteering. This is just to clear up your definitions. Merely adding more steering may not reduce an understeer condition.
Thanks and that does help
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:42 PM   #25
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As far as car terminology goes, it's amazingly straight-forward. I think people over-think the concept frequently.
You know whats really silly i thought that understeer was the car turning in to soon and cutting the turn and going into the dirt!
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Todd in Vancouver View Post
Every freakin time I think I have this straight in my mind I talk myself in circle and get confused, or maybe that's brain under steer, or over steer of the brain?

Eagle 1,
What they had us doing was going in a circle on the skid pad as tight to the cones as possible and then accelerating slowly once tight. The car will go in a bigger and bigger circle as you accelerate and then we were told (via walkie) to lift off the gas and the car comes back in tight really fast with no additional steering input. As we got use to it we learn to modulate the tightness of the circle with just the gas pedal. Really cool stuff to learn and I'm a big advocate of investing in your own driving ability before modding because a good driver can kick my butt regardless of all my horsepower.

Sorry if I'm confusing the question but the terminology just confuses me but when I'm behind the wheel it makes sense
Todd thanks for sharing your info here. You would think that on the skid pad that because of the speed the weight is shifting to the outside and lifting or unloading the inside tire so the lost of traction.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:05 PM   #27
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Richard Petty put it best: "Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back end of the car; understeer is when you hit the wall with the front end of the car."
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:16 AM   #28
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I live on a Cul-de-sac, big ol circle, and I love ripping a few rounds, three or four usually, before whipping it into my driveway. I've yet to oversteer, but understeer like crazy, depending on the temp. 1.2 on the G Meter is my best. Where the road intersects the circle is where I try to really put down the power because I've got a much wider piece of pavement in case I spin out.

Anyway, I watched somebody's video posted here with an instructor in the passenger seat. Just this one little comment the instructor kept making greatly improved my performance. "EYES UP". I noticed I tended to look/focus directly in front of the car instead of looking up ahead. Also I'm learning to keep my eyes where I Want the car to go and not where the car is going.

If she starts to slide off track/course, don't look where she is heading, but focus on where you want her to go. It's pretty amazing but it's like I automatically respond accordingly. Whether I need to let off a little, brake a little, or accelerate a little, looking where I want the car to go is key!

If you fixate on something, let's say you're sliding towards a tree or wall, and your eyes lock on that track, THATS WHERE YOURE GOING TO GO, instead you have to ALWAYS LOOK WHERE YOU WANT THE CAR TO GO!!!!!!...... Believe me its easier said than done. Panic can set in very quickly and you can freeze up instead of focusing on where you want to go. Big empty lot = Practice Practice Practice.
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