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Old 07-16-2017, 01:34 AM   #15
BlaqWhole
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I just leased a Challenger Hellcat with M6 trans, lol!! During a test drive I noticed that 1, the clutch in the HC is super heavy...2, it seemed a bit difficult to drive the HC fast...3, compared to the ZL1 when I first test drove it, the HC did not seem as fast.

Now let me explain. 1, the clutch. I spoke with my best friend and he said that of course the clutch would be heavy in a 707 hp car. Which I agree. I haven't driven a stick shift in months since I got rid of my 15 GT and 10 SS. So my left leg might just be out of practice. 2, it might be that I was being a bit cautious. I got into the car knowing it's power and I was trying to hold back. When I got the ZL1 I was not afraid to let her rip. So it might have been all in my head. 3, the HC I test drove was a used one whereas I'm getting a brand new one. I used the red key, but perhaps the hp was dialed down. Or perhaps driving the ZL1 all this time made the HC feel not as powerful as I thought it should feel. Maybe I'm used to higher hp by now. But no matter how I slice it, it was still a fun car to whip around.

So with that said, I think the LT4 engine is just as strong as the HC engine in that it can take the same abuse. But I do think that larger blower on the HC would give the ZL1 a hard time. Just listening to the supercharger whine in both cars, the HC is much more prominent. So with bolt-ons and stock displacement and keeping the stock blowers on both engines, I think the HC will overwhelm the ZL1. Start throwing aftermarket blowers on both cars and it is anyone's game.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:13 PM   #16
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i was thinking the same thus the whole if you tune it,.... warranty is done. While this is usually the case with any manufacturer it seems GM has really been vocal about this.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP View Post
Approximate LT4 Power Levels:

Bolt ons: 650 RWHP
+ E85 & Ported Blower: 700 RWHP
+ Cam: 750-775 RWHP
+ Heads: 800 RWHP
+ Everything else: 820 RWHP.

What 2NASSTY said is dead on as usual. Hellcats are no joke on the highway or the strip. Hellcat engines crank out 900+ RWHP on bolt ons and E85. Their A8 is insanely quick too, coupled with spongey suspension that helps the weight to really transfer hard...They're definitely a tad quicker than an A10 ZL1 stock, and mod for mod, wayyy faster.

This is the discussion I've had here before, no one likes when I say the above, but it's true. GM let us down for the highway/strip usage compared to our current competitors. No doubt when the GT500 comes out it will beat the Hellcat in the highway/strip category, which already beats the ZL1, and the GT500 will probably out do/tie the ZL1 on a road course by taking pieces from a GT350R = We are behind again. GM did the same thing to us 5th gen ZL1 owners, our competitors (GT500s, Hellcats), left us for dead when racing how 99% of owners get to race...Three honk races in Mexico or strip nights.
I agree with most of what you say other than the GT500 will beat both the Hellcat and ZL1 at the strip. If it isn't released with an automatic that isn't going to happen even if they throw 750-hp at it. Look at the times the manual versions of the Hellcat and ZL1s have compared to the automatics they loose atleast 1/2 second sometimes more.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP View Post
Approximate LT4 Power Levels:

Bolt ons: 650 RWHP
+ E85 & Ported Blower: 700 RWHP
+ Cam: 750-775 RWHP
+ Heads: 800 RWHP
+ Everything else: 820 RWHP.

What 2NASSTY said is dead on as usual. Hellcats are no joke on the highway or the strip. Hellcat engines crank out 900+ RWHP on bolt ons and E85. Their A8 is insanely quick too, coupled with spongey suspension that helps the weight to really transfer hard...They're definitely a tad quicker than an A10 ZL1 stock, and mod for mod, wayyy faster.

This is the discussion I've had here before, no one likes when I say the above, but it's true. GM let us down for the highway/strip usage compared to our current competitors. No doubt when the GT500 comes out it will beat the Hellcat in the highway/strip category, which already beats the ZL1, and the GT500 will probably out do/tie the ZL1 on a road course by taking pieces from a GT350R = We are behind again. GM did the same thing to us 5th gen ZL1 owners, our competitors (GT500s, Hellcats), left us for dead when racing how 99% of owners get to race...Three honk races in Mexico or strip nights.
I disagree with the part about GM letting us down. There is no way the 17 ZL1 is a let down. If anything I think GM got it right and found the perfect balance between price, comfort, performance, options, and everything else. Going from a Hellcat to a ZL1 you would see just how remarkable the ZL1 is. I mean, the Hellcat is an absolute monster. But the ZL1 is just such an awesome car when everything is thrown at it. In the HC you have to slow down a lot before hitting a corner...and much earlier because the brakes are not strong enough for the size, weight, and power of the HC. In the ZL1 you can just whip around any corner and come out blazing and just nail it. The brakes are phenomenal. And the car grabs you and holds you tight in the seat. The HC's seats just will have you all over the place. Plus A10 to A8 and I think you have a dead even race. A10 to M6 and the ZL1 should win. A8 to M6 and we know the HC will win. But trust me, the ZL1 is probably one of the most awesome machines out right now...I mean, not including Vipers and GTRs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
I agree with most of what you say other than the GT500 will beat both the Hellcat and ZL1 at the strip. If it isn't released with an automatic that isn't going to happen even if they throw 750-hp at it. Look at the times the manual versions of the Hellcat and ZL1s have compared to the automatics they loose atleast 1/2 second sometimes more.
If Ford is gonna remain competitive they're gonna have to throw an auto in the Shelbys. And more options like a sunroof.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:57 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I disagree with the part about GM letting us down. There is no way the 17 ZL1 is a let down. If anything I think GM got it right and found the perfect balance between price, comfort, performance, options, and everything else.
Preach.

If I wanted just a drag car, I'd just get something way cheaper and throw a blower on it. The value in this car is that it does everything very well.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:44 AM   #20
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I believe the OP original ask was ZL1 engine potential...versus Hemi/Hellcat engine.

Correct??
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2NASSTY View Post
I believe the OP original ask was ZL1 engine potential...versus Hemi/Hellcat engine.

Correct??
Correct. The Hellcat will be cheaper to mod with the larger blower. As for how much the stock long block can handle? It will probably be close as we've seen both 1,000 rwhp Z06's and Hellcats on the stock Long block.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I just leased a Challenger Hellcat with M6 trans, lol!! During a test drive I noticed that 1, the clutch in the HC is super heavy...2, it seemed a bit difficult to drive the HC fast...3, compared to the ZL1 when I first test drove it, the HC did not seem as fast.

Now let me explain. 1, the clutch. I spoke with my best friend and he said that of course the clutch would be heavy in a 707 hp car. Which I agree. I haven't driven a stick shift in months since I got rid of my 15 GT and 10 SS. So my left leg might just be out of practice. 2, it might be that I was being a bit cautious. I got into the car knowing it's power and I was trying to hold back. When I got the ZL1 I was not afraid to let her rip. So it might have been all in my head. 3, the HC I test drove was a used one whereas I'm getting a brand new one. I used the red key, but perhaps the hp was dialed down. Or perhaps driving the ZL1 all this time made the HC feel not as powerful as I thought it should feel. Maybe I'm used to higher hp by now. But no matter how I slice it, it was still a fun car to whip around.

So with that said, I think the LT4 engine is just as strong as the HC engine in that it can take the same abuse. But I do think that larger blower on the HC would give the ZL1 a hard time. Just listening to the supercharger whine in both cars, the HC is much more prominent. So with bolt-ons and stock displacement and keeping the stock blowers on both engines, I think the HC will overwhelm the ZL1. Start throwing aftermarket blowers on both cars and it is anyone's game.
Jason Cammisa from Motor Trend said the same thing about the manual Hellcat. I bet if you drove the auto you would have a different feeling about how fast the car feels. I've never driven a hellcat but that's what I've heard.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:11 PM   #23
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Stock the Hellcat has the advantage. Boltons and the Hellcat has the advantage. But they both to me seem to be very strong engines. So once you start heavily modding both engines (turbos, blowers, E85, cams, heads, etc) I think the advantage would switch over to the ZL1 due to the sheer weight and size of the Hellcat. At a certain point that heft will be too much. This is all of course talking straight line performance and HP/TQ numbers.

Now I do think for what they offer, both cars are pretty much in the same boat as far as value. Dodge is making a straight line killer and Chevy is making an all around star. The ZL1 seems to have more tech while the HC seems to have more stuff dedicated to the quarter mile. The HC is without a doubt more comfy and a lot easier to get in and out of. But the ZL1 is a lot easier to drive fast. They both demand attention but the ZL1 gets more because the 6th Gen is a new body style. So taking all aspects into account, they're equal. Just engine and power and drag racing and potential, I'd say it depends on how far you plan to mod each.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:47 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSteel07 View Post
Jason Cammisa from Motor Trend said the same thing about the manual Hellcat. I bet if you drove the auto you would have a different feeling about how fast the car feels. I've never driven a hellcat but that's what I've heard.
From what others on the HC forums have said, the car gets faster as you break it in. One guy over there had 200 miles on his and made complaints that it felt slow. So they told him to break it in fully and see how it does. I would not call it slow at all. Mine has about 150 miles on it and it does indeed feel fast. But it is just that my ZL1 felt faster. That may be because I went from a bolt-on Camaro SS and a bolt-on Mustang GT to the ZL1. And I have been driving the ZL1 for 3 months now. So when I test drove the HC maybe the fact that I'm now used to a higher power level kinda took away the shock, lol. BTW I wanted the A8 but had to "settle" for the M6 since a deal came thru and I didn't wanna wait for an A8 and risk not getting one at all.

And as an update, I drove the HC this morning and decided to drive it a little aggressively. Man this thing really IS fast, lol!!
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:39 AM   #25
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All of this is really good dialogue but has anybody asked why GM chose the LT4? From an engineering perspective why was the LT4 design chosen as a successor to the LSA/LS9? I understand the corvette conversation, but they could have taken a more serious approach to both the car and the engine because they never did seem to be a perfect match. The Corvette chassis doesn't really tolerate the LT4 at the limits, nor does the LT4 present a sufficient limit for the fabled corvette. I wanted the C7 to be a much more impressive performer than the C6. Not a little better, world's better. The comparison of the Gen 5/6 ZL1s are the kind of differences I expected. 200 lbs lighter, +80hp, +117 ft lb torque, .7 second difference is the best times or an average of .5 second difference in 1/4, and an almost 12 second gap on the ring. That's a significant difference. The LT4 for the Camaro is sufficient and wholly appropriate, but for the King of Corvettes the LT4 is quite the let down.
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:57 AM   #26
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Your question nails the real issue here with GMs top of the line powertrain. I am not a GM designer engineer, but the consensus has been packaging and direct fuel injection on why the LT4 was motor of choice for the fabled Corvette flagship Z06/ZO7.

The LS9 in comparison made 638 hp 9 years ago with none of the heating/packaging issues in Corvette/LT4. It also has a slightly higher HP ceiling when modded at a cheaper cost. The LS9 hand built forged bottom with exotic moterials in the valve train was Not cost effective for mass production. That void was filled by the LSA. I will stop here.

I believe GM has worked all the cooling issues out in the LT4 in this new ZL1 bone stock. Corvette owners are not happy with this at all.
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Old 07-18-2017, 11:43 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2NASSTY View Post
I'm no Dodge expert, but I try to keep up with competition at the track. I believe all the Hellcat blower engines are 6.2L. Perhaps the NA Hemi motors are 6.4L

Bone stock Hellcats have run high 10's on just a drag radial. Catch them on the street on their small factory rear tires and it's a drivers race. That will change with the wide body Hellcat as you mentioned.

The limiting factor on power with the LT4 vs Hellcat motor is the blower size.
I think when people start putting tires on these new ZL1's and get some cold dry air you will see 10.7-10.8 stock! I've ran in the hot air here in Florida on stock tires and ran better times than hellcats and Z06 corevettes. That may be driver or many other factors but that's what happens in the real world.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:18 PM   #28
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I agree with you HAMMERHEAD in the A10 on just a tire, which is impressive! The fact that the Hellcat is doing this 500-600 lbs heavier shows how strong the bigger blower is. I wouldn't be surprised if their 6.2L engine heads have bigger intake/exhaust ports to push more air/fuel also.

I'd rather be in a ZL1, but this is what you have to deal with when you run one at the track. The Ford boys aren't playing either slapping turbos on their 5.0s. Again, much rather be in a ZL1 lol
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