Is this a Z28 Disguised as a ZL1

[htron50]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

EVERY SINGLE PART LISTED is now sitting on a shelf in a GM facility. In fact, every item (save the engine and a ZEE-specific hood) is NOW sitting in Oshawa. Applied, as suggested, and batch-built (yeah, we've even discussed that), with a Retail Price as indicated, GM would be another step further from banko...and hopefully you agree that would be a good thing...GM being further from Chapter 11...and 1,000s of extra Camaros being SOLD-SOLD-SOLD!

Would a ZEE eat away at ZL1/SS sales? Quite likely. BUT, they'll migrate to another CAMARO, not a 'Stang or a Challenger...or a Used-up Fiat-owned buckboard.

WOW! LOWDOWN. Exquisite articulation. I'm speechless... Don't know you, but you "got the gift"....... nice read. Thanks

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by htron50

WOW! LOWDOWN. Exquisite articulation. I'm speechless... Don't know you, but you "got the gift"....... nice read. Thanks

Agreed....and to Lowdowns Who reference ;"The Who sang it best: ZEE me, Feel me, Touch me, Heal me!"...and I ad another one if I may.."The Real Me" ...I went to my mother, I zaid I'm crazy, ma, help me....she zaid I know how it feelz son, 'cuz it runz in the family....can you Zee the real me mother, mother...can you see Zee the real me, can ya, can ya....<my alltime favorite group> Very much indeed do I look forward to blast Quadraphenia, Tommy, Who's Next etc... in my new Z.

[Fightinfire921]

Originally Posted by htron50

WOW! LOWDOWN. Exquisite articulation. I'm speechless... Don't know you, but you "got the gift"....... nice read. Thanks

[htron50]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

Agreed....and to Lowdowns Who reference ;"The Who sang it best: ZEE me, Feel me, Touch me, Heal me!"...and I ad another one if I may.."The Real Me" ...I went to my mother, I zaid I'm crazy, ma, help me....she zaid I know how it feelz son, 'cuz it runz in the family....can you Zee the real me mother, mother...can you see Zee the real me, can ya, can ya....<my alltime favorite group> Very much indeed do I look forward to blast Quadraphenia, Tommy, Who's Next etc... in my new Z.

The WHO is great! I went to a concert of theirs about 10 yrs ago. They were old n gray... but still doing a great job. I love to listen to their UNCUT versions the best! I imagine sometime when we all get together for a drink, its gonna be a bunch of ol gray hair dudes at a table talking OldScool and "Yesterday"
But, they were great times and if we can keep them alive.... "Hell Yeah!"

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Blizzard

I agree with your 12 step program, accept for on part. MRC, i don't think the Z28 should have it. MRC is not track legal an d the Z28 should be able to pull up to a event from the show room floor and race.

Bliz I would agree 100%...except...the 1LE @ SEMA was MRC-equipped which, in my feeble mind, indicates a genuine Camaro Team "enthusiasm" for the technology. As well, the MRC (with perhaps slight tweaking for lower and differently distributed weight) exists, while my personally preferred "massaged FE4" doesn't. Anything not currently existing/certified/validated would add development time and expense, especially a "new" lowered suspension that would dictate fresh crash-testing and durability trials. And we don't want GM goin' banco again 'cuz of US!

As well, MRC spread over two programs (if not three: ZL1, Z/28 and perhaps 1LE based on an LS3-engined SS) aids unit cost and, therefore, pricing and profitability. A "unique-to-ZEE" suspension might end up costing essentially the SAME as an MRC-equipped car. And the vast majority of Z/28s will likely never actively enjoy the Streets of Willow...most WILL enjoy the streets of Detroit et al, frost heaves 'n all...

For those who WILL run in a sanctioned Series forbidding MRC, I absolutely expect GMPP to have the requisite homologated mechanical suspension (with a Pedders sticker on it, somewhere...) readily available from Hometown Chevy. In fact, it may already have a Part #...

Moving forward (i.e. Gen-6 Camaro), I foresee wider use of electronic suspension systems as vehicles decrease in size (by necessity) but consumers are not willing to accept "crapcan" ride 'n handling...

Again, conjecture...combined with a smidgeon of wishful thinking...but it IS my $.02...

Addendum:
As to the "gray hair" comment/guess, I'll confirm that to be true...what little there IS...

.

[htp autoworks]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Sooo many counterpoints, so little time...

If I may, I'll take a few moments from my otherwise fanciful dream of a proper ZEE and amuse you further...

Viper ACR setting a 7:12 time @ the 'Ring (and being that coveted piece because its hand-assembled): Good for them...with a Used Car running on R-compound tires, no longer manufactured because it was oh-so-awesome and oh-so-value-packed. I'm sure Fiat has great plans for this dormant nameplate...

ZL1 @ the 'Ring: 7:41...a perfect example of what a few extra horses, a wee diet (100 or so lb.), and better wheels/tires/suspension can do, relative to the 7:58 pulled off by the CTS-V. Don't forget these important points...

Banko: The proper way out of their financial quagmire was/is to build vehicles, at a profit, that people willingly (longingly??) wanna buy...without rebates...

Mass-produced: The more built and sold, the more profitable something will become. And you can produce more vehicles with higher quality in greater numbers with modern computerized robotic assistance. Hand-assembled works wonderfully when you're building handfulls, NOT 1,000s. Undeniable FACT.

Specialized vehicles are complex and expensive: Correct...when hand-assembled and built in tiny batches, relatively. Or when built on an assemblyline, a few at a time, interspersed with much higher volume units, if utilizing rare, custom-made pieces.

GM can't possibly build a profitable Z/28: Gee, time to close this whole section... Oh, wait a minute. Somewhere in this vast "resource" called the Camaro Z28 Forum - Z28 Specific Topics exists numerous posts contributing ideas, knowledge, GM-approved manufacturing techniques...and rationalization from decades of GM first-hand experience. At the Wholesale and Retail levels. In engineering. In manufacturing processes. In certification/validation. You know, the things Mopar didn't need to go through to send their one-off Used Car around the 'Ring @ 7:12...

If you don't have the time or inclination to go through ALL that "data", let me give you the Cliff's Notes version...and you can start with my signature, below...

There, you have just seen a buildable recipe for an Oshawa-produced ZEE...buildable in numbers I personally believe will DWARF the ZL1...just as it did in '69...just as it could in '13-'14-'15...

EVERY SINGLE PART LISTED is now sitting on a shelf in a GM facility. In fact, every item (save the engine and a ZEE-specific hood) is NOW sitting in Oshawa. Applied, as suggested, and batch-built (yeah, we've even discussed that), with a Retail Price as indicated, GM would be another step further from banko...and hopefully you agree that would be a good thing...GM being further from Chapter 11...and 1,000s of extra Camaros being SOLD-SOLD-SOLD!

Would a ZEE eat away at ZL1/SS sales? Quite likely. BUT, they'll migrate to another CAMARO, not a 'Stang or a Challenger...or a Used-up Fiat-owned buckboard.

"Used up Fiat owned bucketboard"... LMAO! Ok fanboy, I guess they will always hold the record... until the next Viper comes out... in say 2013. I wont waste any more of your "dreamland" time. I guess we will see when and if the Z28 comes out. My bet is no. Better economy and a government (that still owns 36 % of GM) that wasnt killing the car industry, then maybe. But sorry, it isnt going to happen.

By the way the Viper that broke the record was a new ACR withh stock tires... straight off the shoroom floor. The hardcore ACR that ran the 7:03 was also stock and off the showroom floor. 7:12 to 7:41 is a LIFETIME at the Ring... so much so that you cant possibly make a ridiculous statement (like you did) without loosing credibility.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by htp autoworks

Trust me I would LOVE to see the Z28 come out but I think it is a little ridiculous to think that the head of GM is going to listen to you guys and go hey "they want a Z28 that will basically be a little higher performance than an SS yet cost less than the ZL1... so lets build it." It wont happen... and to sit her eand speculate that it will seems silly to me. Maybe if they got rid of the SS then yes I can see it. But like I posted earleir these cars are built on a robotic assembly line at the same plant. Do you expect them to build another line for a car that really wont be much different than the SS? maybe I am missing something here but I just dont see the logic in it. A Z28 should be their flagship Camaro... as it has... not a mid model car.

And by your justification (in the Z28/Viper) example, someone should get two V6 Camaros instead of a ZL1. A Viper is a track ready HAND BUILT street legal car that has set just about every track record out there. A ZL1 didnt fair so well at the Ring (in comparison) and is built by robots on an assembly line.

Again, your point is?? To even begin to compare a Viper and a Camaro is the epitomy of absurd. And GM would not have to build "another assembly line" to produce a Camaro Z/28 just as there are not different lines for the ZL1 Camaro. Perhaps you need to read up a little on modern day assembly line techniques, they have changed a little from Model T days. And I'm sure we don't need your knowledge and permission to speak about what we want and what and where a Z/28 should be in the Camaro lineup. I for one welcome people coming to the Z/28 forum that want to carry on an intelligent discussion, unfortunately many people pop in here simply to "stir the pot" and see how many arguments they can create. You can figure out for yourself where you fall within that criteria.

Clyde

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by htron50

The WHO is great! I went to a concert of theirs about 10 yrs ago. They were old n gray... but still doing a great job. I love to listen to their UNCUT versions the best! I imagine sometime when we all get together for a drink, its gonna be a bunch of ol gray hair dudes at a table talking OldScool and "Yesterday"
But, they were great times and if we can keep them alive.... "Hell Yeah!"

Saw them three times back in '78 or '79, Passaic, Philly, and NYC, the best all time concert that anyone could ever possibly experience was when I saw The Who about 4 months after Keith Moon died. It was at the Capital Theater in Passaic NJ. About 2,500 seats, a theater with a stage, the music was as loud and cystal clear beyond imagination. I couldn't hear for three days after. Note: I got the tickets because WYSP, a local Philly FM station had a win tickets offer. Send in post cards to win free tickets. I bought 100 post cards<10.00 back then> and mailed them. Low and behold I won 2 pair of tickets. Had to stand in line outside the theater to pick them up in advance, well worth. The music at that show was as perfectly loud and clear as a new LP on earphones. The crowd was dumfounded and sat quiet after the tunes were played. Daltry turned and looked at Townsend after the songs ended in a confused look why we are silent, as if something was wrong. Awestruck was the crowds response. Trancelike. Sheer perfection. I will never, ever, forget that performance.I attended lots of concerts, but nothing EVER like that.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by htp autoworks

"Used up Fiat owned bucketboard"... LMAO! Ok fanboy, I guess they will always hold the record... until the next Viper comes out... in say 2013. I wont waste any more of your "dreamland" time. I guess we will see when and if the Z28 comes out. My bet is no. Better economy and a government (that still owns 36 % of GM) that wasnt killing the car industry, then maybe. But sorry, it isnt going to happen.

By the way the Viper that broke the record was a new ACR withh stock tires... straight off the shoroom floor. The hardcore ACR that ran the 7:03 was also stock and off the showroom floor. 7:12 to 7:41 is a LIFETIME at the Ring... so much so that you cant possibly make a ridiculous statement (like you did) without loosing credibility.

If your first name is Richard, would you mind if I called you DICK?!

Buckboard...as in what a Viper rides like. Ever ridden in a Viper? Ever DRIVEN a Viper? Ever SEEN an ACR? What tires come on them? R-compounds. Good for a second or two a lap at any track...and a few more seconds at the 'Ring...

As for comparing (or expecting) a ZEE to a 2008 Viper ACR, not in this dreamland, DICK. YOU, DICK, are the one draggin' a Used Viper into this conversation...like it's relevant...so I tried (futilely, to you, of course...) to bring some relevancy to your 'Ring-around-a-racetrack banter. Real relevancy would be for Mother Mopar to bring a production-built Challenger to the 'Ring...and do what its name sez: Challenge! Instead of spectate...

Tell ya what, DICK, bring your Fiat ACR to the 'Ring, allow GM to do similar mods to their ZR1, and we'll have a lil "run what ya brung, southern-style". Keep your Tag-Heuer timepiece handy...this won't take long...

[htp autoworks]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

Again, your point is?? To even begin to compare a Viper and a Camaro is the epitomy of absurd. And GM would not have to build "another assembly line" to produce a Camaro Z/28 just as there are not different lines for the ZL1 Camaro. Perhaps you need to read up a little on modern day assembly line techniques, they have changed a little from Model T days. And I'm sure we don't need your knowledge and permission to speak about what we want and what and where a Z/28 should be in the Camaro lineup. I for one welcome people coming to the Z/28 forum that want to carry on an intelligent discussion, unfortunately many people pop in here simply to "stir the pot" and see how many arguments they can create. You can figure out for yourself where you fall within that criteria.

Clyde

Again, could care less. I stated earlier that I WISH THEY WOULD MAKE THE Z28. Sounds pretty clear to me. I just see the Z28 as being a "flagship" Camaro... which is where I believe our opinions differ. TO ME it doesnt make sense to develop another Camaro that wont at least match the performance of the ZL-1... would be a pretty big let down in the automotive world when everyone is trying to "one up" the competition. I guess I could see it as a "Boss" equivalant (a better performance Mustang than the GT but not the GT500) but I still beleive the Z28 should be the King of the Camaros.

I also didnt start the comparison between the Viper and Camaro... I just made a point that you cant call a Viper a rustbucket while using Ring times as a standard. What would that make the Camaro??? Yes its not a fair comparion of the two cars but neither is talking it down when you have never sat in one much less owned one. I woned an 2004 Viper and it was one of the most inspiring cars I have ever driven... and hada much better build quality than the Camaro... but I would still never call either one of them garbage... or worn out.

Oh and on a side note to Lowdown, you might want to see what Fiat has done with Chrysler. I rode in a new SRT-8 Jeep the other day and the build quality was phenominal. The interior was better than what I have seen in the BMW X5 and the power was impressive. Sure I am not happy that Fiat owns and American automanufacturer but our government didnt give Chrysler much choice. Andseeing how Chrysler sales were up 26% last year compared to GMs 13 % I guess they have figured something out. Hopefully GM and Ford will follow because I think overall American cars are lacking a little in quality.

[2cnd chance]

My friendZ,
Please notice I've stayed out of this conversation today. There is no rhyme or reason as to what is being spewed forth by some (we know who it is). I admonish all to move on as I have. Please let's get back to our regularly scheduled programZ.

Sincerely From your,
Zbrother

[htp autoworks]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

If your first name is Richard, would you mind if I called you DICK?!

Buckboard...as in what a Viper rides like. Ever ridden in a Viper? Ever DRIVEN a Viper? Ever SEEN an ACR? What tires come on them? R-compounds. Good for a second or two a lap at any track...and a few more seconds at the 'Ring...

As for comparing (or expecting) a ZEE to a 2008 Viper ACR, not in this dreamland, DICK. YOU, DICK, are the one draggin' a Used Viper into this conversation...like it's relevant...so I tried (futilely, to you, of course...) to bring some relevancy to your 'Ring-around-a-racetrack banter. Real relevancy would be for Mother Mopar to bring a production-built Challenger to the 'Ring...and do what its name sez: Challenge! Instead of spectate...

Tell ya what, DICK, bring your Fiat ACR to the 'Ring, allow GM to do similar mods to their ZR1, and we'll have a lil "run what ya brung, southern-style". Keep your Tag-Heuer timepiece handy...this won't take long...

DICK? LOL, another big talker through the keyboard. Love it. And yes I have owned a Camaro, a Mustang GT ANDDDDDDDDD a Viper... to name a few. I get bored with cars very quickly and the Viper is the only one I didnt get bored with. Maybe you need a CTS-V if a Viper is too much for you. Ever ridden in a true track car? They all ride stiff.

And by the way, GM brough their ZR1 to the Ring and guess what... it couldnt beat the Lexus. They had plenty of time to set it up and made plenty of runs. The Viper was off the showroom floor and was FACTORY... and is NA. So get a clue before you keep making yourself look bad. DICK. And how did the challenger come into this? I wouldnt own one of those if it was given to me... or another Mustang.

I will allow you to live in peace in since you get so spun up. I see you cant handle conversation with anyone that has a differing opinion... without becoming an internet badass. Nice avatar by the way, is it yours???

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by htp autoworks

Again, could care less. I stated earlier that I WISH THEY WOULD MAKE THE Z28. Sounds pretty clear to me. I just see the Z28 as being a "flagship" Camaro... which is where I believe our opinions differ. TO ME it doesnt make sense to develop another Camaro that wont at least match the performance of the ZL-1... would be a pretty big let down in the automotive world when everyone is trying to "one up" the competition. I guess I could see it as a "Boss" equivalant (a better performance Mustang than the GT but not the GT500) but I still beleive the Z28 should be the King of the Camaros.

I also didnt start the comparison between the Viper and Camaro... I just made a point that you cant call a Viper a rustbucket while using Ring times as a standard. What would that make the Camaro??? Yes its not a fair comparion of the two cars but neither is talking it down when you have never sat in one much less owned one. I woned an 2004 Viper and it was one of the most inspiring cars I have ever driven... and hada much better build quality than the Camaro... but I would still never call either one of them garbage... or worn out.

Oh and on a side note to Lowdown, you might want to see what Fiat has done with Chrysler. I rode in a new SRT-8 Jeep the other day and the build quality was phenominal. The interior was better than what I have seen in the BMW X5 and the power was impressive. Sure I am not happy that Fiat owns and American automanufacturer but our government didnt give Chrysler much choice. Andseeing how Chrysler sales were up 26% last year compared to GMs 13 % I guess they have figured something out. Hopefully GM and Ford will follow because I think overall American cars are lacking a little in quality.

Again, you obviously have not read all the threads in the Z/28 forum or all the posts in this thread, if you had you would understand where we are coming from and what performance levels we are looking for. The government didn't give Chryler a chance......last time I checked it was Daimler Benz that owned them and wanted to sell them and they ended up being bought by Fiat. You have to forgive us "fanboys" over here in the Z/28 thread, we don't know nuthin bout nuthin and have absolutely no idea of the difference between fantasy and reality, that's just the way we are!!

Clyde

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by htp autoworks

The simplest way to put it, the government has directed the fuel milage changes. Car companies can not continue to build 500-600hp cars and meet the standards. If they do it will take some new technology that isnt out there currently. And if they day I will be a very happy man. If I could get a 600hp car and also get 30mpg I would learn to do cartwheels.

As long as the MPG is averaged across the whole company instead of the individual vehicle, this will never be an issue. MPGs for most vehicles made in the USA are at an all time high, with newer, better, more efficient vehicles...

Think about it, in 2002 a 345hp Camaro got crappier mileage than my 500lb heavier, 70hp more Camaro.....Also, the Z06 Corvette was the first and only 500+hp car to not be tagged with the gas guzzler tax.

It CAN happen.... and quite honestly, it's not that big of a stretch to do it....

There are cars on the market right now with proper tuning are getting 3-5mpg better than what they are rated for...easily..