Buying American Made Harder than Necessary

[AngryAmish]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

1. That's what I said, $75/hour including benefits.

2. So is GM's problem that people are collecting benefits for too long, or that they don't start soon enough. You argued for both.

3. Forced retirement? I'm speechless (and just broke out in a cold sweat).

Did I single you out?

As far as number 2 goes, its a combination of paying out pensions and too many people at top rate.

3. Its actually not that uncommon. Alot of city governments will force retirement before laying off people. Pittsburgh does it, and I feel its a system that works. Keep in mind too, that GM did a bit of restructuring of the pension plan so that soon they won't be paying the bulk of the retirement funds. Another little footnote as far as #1 goes.

[Revo1]

Originally Posted by nasty2ss

Sure hope that's not the case... :(

Or I'm about to be in a $14k hole, and not over a Camaro... :( :(

[SleepWarz]

Originally Posted by Xanthos

I don't know - I agree with you to a point, but there gets to be a point also where the level of education required to do a certain job really does merit a higher salary for that person.

Take for example a Doctor (of medicine) - these people go to college for four years to get a bachelors degree, then another four years of medical school, usually followed by a three to seven year residency, and occasionally (depending on specialty) a one to four year fellowship.

So, these people go to college for at least eight years, more often eleven, and even as many as nineteen. And you don't believe these people deserve to get paid more than somebody who went to a technical school, or else learned their skill through on the job training?

I'm sorry - I appreciate the value of skilled labor. Without it we would go nowhere as a species. However, without educated people we would go nowhere as well. And there gets to be a point where those people willing to get that education do deserve to be paid more for their efforts.
- X

In certian fields, medicial, technical, scientific. Absolutely are things like these deserving of a good wages and benefits, I was more ripping onto the realm of the paper pushers, management and business courses/degrees. However, I do not belive the time you need to spend to become highly trained is worth it anymore. The only thing seemingly worth it today is to figure out the best way to screw someone, and thats really unfortunate. What would be nicer is if we could go down our chosen career education path at a MUCH earlier age.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by SleepWarz

What would be nicer is if we could go down our chosen career education path at a MUCH earlier age.

Hmm, now thats an interesting proposition. Not sure how it would work out, but definitely worth considering. Of course, it would require drastic changes in our infrastructure.
- X

[The_Blur]

This thread has taken a very interesting direction.

I like the idea of starting at a younger age. There are places in Europe that are more oriented toward this approach. This would revolutionize education as we know it.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

Cheaper workers elsewhere, like in Alabama. (Learn from Hyundai).

Good point. There are still opportunities to "keep it American" by finding communities with high unemployment and/or subing it out to the Martinrea's of the world.

Going overseas should be the last option.

[zebra]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

Why didn't you post earlier? You could've saved me the time! ...

because...


i've been at work...

Easter weekend at my church is one of the biggest things we do, so we've been going almost non-stop for the past 4 days

[2010-1SS-IBM]

As far as Blur's original question; GM should do what is in it's best interest to do. They don't owe anything to the UAW, they owe everything to their stockholders and customers.

As far as unions go, I never liked them myself. Most agreements are structured and bureacratic, which makes innovation in the workforce hard. Compensation-wise, I think they're less fair than the regular labor market, and cost their company it's best workers.

As far as college goes, it's over-rated for most jobs. Yeah I know you learn a lot at college, but it's not like you learn nothing by working for 4 years instead (and I'd say most of the time 4 years of experience is better than a college degree).

The biggest reason college is overrated though is the expense. It's almost criminal what most schools charge for a degree, and it keeps getting worse. Thank easy money in the form of college loans for that. The same easy lending that caused house prices to inflate 8 years ago has been pushing up college tuition for decades.

At the end of the day though, none of that matters for employment. What does matter is whether you like to work and make a difference at your job, or whether you're just there to get a paycheck.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by vsound

For what it is worth, the statistic is that if you are college educated, you make $1 million more throughout your lifetime.

Not trying to pick a fight, but I've seen that argument a few times and it's a bogus one. The Census Bureau's statistic didn't (couldn't, really) account for self-selection ie; smarter people make more money in life, and more smart people go to college than dumb ones.

The only way to truly measure how much more money a person could make by going to college would be to have the same people work an entire lifetime without a degree, then start over and work an entire lifetime with a degree, and then measure the results. Obviously that's not possible.

Also, if we removed degrees that are required for their professions (doctors, laywers, engineers) we'd probably find that there is no earnings difference, with a college degree perhaps causing a person to have less money overall once the cost of college and the loss of 4 years of earnings are factored in.

I'd bank more on wanting to excel in work than on a college degree.

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by Revo1

What do you do, if I may ask...

Tattooing, custom painting and real estate acquired with the money from the first. After re-reading my comment I thought I came across as bragging and thats not my intention. I've been in this business for almost twenty years so I've had an opportunity to grow on a personal and financial level.

The best thing I ever did was read "Rich man, poor man" a book that addresses personal financial matters. Its no accident Our system is complicated and difficult to understand by the average citizen. If most working class people really understood how our system is designed to operate they would understand how manipulated they are by those in the "know". That is why I support unions. They aren't perfect but they give workers an opportunity to make a living wage.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; The free market is a figment of the imagination created by those that enjoy an unfair advantage and wish to maintain it.

[vsound]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Not trying to pick a fight, but I've seen that argument a few times and it's a bogus one. The Census Bureau's statistic didn't (couldn't, really) account for self-selection ie; smarter people make more money in life, and more smart people go to college than dumb ones.

The only way to truly measure how much more money a person could make by going to college would be to have the same people work an entire lifetime without a degree, then start over and work an entire lifetime with a degree, and then measure the results. Obviously that's not possible.

Also, if we removed degrees that are required for their professions (doctors, laywers, engineers) we'd probably find that there is no earnings difference, with a college degree perhaps causing a person to have less money overall once the cost of college and the loss of 4 years of earnings are factored in.

I'd bank more on wanting to excel in work than on a college degree.

I agree, it's a variable statistic.

Here is what I have been considering, and it is just my train of thought, so if you don't follow, I won't be offended.

I work in a pretty small town where the only people who have jobs with college degrees work for the government, generally--we're talking teachers, people who map out land lines, etc. There are a few exceptions, but they are very few and far between.

These are the statistics for my town according to the 2000 census:

The median income for a household in the county was $29,383, and the median income for a family was $34,854. Males had a median income of $26,706 versus $20,346 for females. The per capita income for the county was $14,791. About 11.20% of families and 14.30% of the population were below the poverty line, including 16.90% of those under age 18 and 13.90% of those age 65 or over.

So, in a town like mine, you are much more likely to make a good standard of living with an education. Because chances are, if you don't, you'll make approximately $23,000 or less doing something else.

Just a quick idea of what I am saying: The median income for a family here was $34,854 then. Teacher salaries haven't changed much since 2000, so I can say that $30,000 starting is about average.

Let's say you have two teachers who are married, who make a combined income of $60,000 when they are fresh out of school. That's before they get increased wages for getting their MAs, etc. It is hard to touch that here. That's double the average median family income nearly.

[Super83Z]

Some work is better than no work.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by vsound

So, in a town like mine, you are much more likely to make a good standard of living with an education. Because chances are, if you don't, you'll make approximately $23,000 or less doing something else.

Just a quick idea of what I am saying: The median income for a family here was $34,854 then. Teacher salaries haven't changed much since 2000, so I can say that $30,000 starting is about average.

Let's say you have two teachers who are married, who make a combined income of $60,000 when they are fresh out of school. That's before they get increased wages for getting their MAs, etc. It is hard to touch that here. That's double the average median family income nearly.

I guess that depends on whether it's a given that everyone with a college degree will be hired on as a teacher. If you do pay for a college degree but aren't able to get hired on as a teacher (or can't get on full-time, etc...), you'd be in worse shape.

[Stingr69]

I like the idea of American workers earning a good wage and keeping jobs here in the United States BUT I do not like the idea of taking MY MONEY away from MY FAMILY to give to some other American worker just because he is well "organized" and overpaid for doing a job because he is "organized". Yes, the "organized" American worker does better for himself by being organized but it would be at my family's expense? -NOT!

This is a battle between labor and management for $$$ resources. If the American workers do not want to take those jobs, then management is free to offer the jobs to someone else that WILL do it for the price. They had to make the offer but nobody will force anyone to take it. Management must decide how to respond to the business forces at hand and do what the business owners pay them to do - run the business.

No conflict here, just easy math.

-Mark.