Understanding F/I in a 5th gen Camaro - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

audiomikej · 08-14-2012, 09:24 PM

I get it now. These are ballpark HP figures for a 5th gen Camaro.
Roots (Maggie, SLP, Edelbrock) best for target HP 500-700, best for street, bypass valve keeps IAT’s low in traffic, and bypass valve puts rotors free spin drawing little HP in traffic.
Twin Screw (Whipple KB, Lysholm) best for target HP 600-850. Not sure if Whipple’s bypass is a full bypass or if the rotors are compressing recycled air. I know KB still compresses the recycled air causing IATs to spike in traffic.
Centrifugal (ProCharger, Vortec/Paxton) Best for high stall autos setup for the fastest drag strip E.T. over 750 HP, little to no benefit on street.
Turbos can be designed for 500-2000+, but work best without cats. I like the front mount turbonetics kit, but I worry about managing all of the hot side heat and the OEM’s do not run turbos post cats.
Agree, disagree? Do I pass the test teacher?

chappy48 · 08-14-2012, 09:31 PM

Disagree. I'm a roots guy, but to say that Centri's have little to no benefit on the street is just crazy talk. Fact of the matter is, with any supercharger kit you will have at least 500rwhp on tap under your foot. Just about all of these superchargers are good for up to 750-800rwhp. It's only when you really start digging into your wallet and pushing the boost that Centri's run away into the 900-1000+ range.

HufferSS · 08-14-2012, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiomikej

I get it now. These are ballpark HP figures for a 5th gen Camaro.
Roots (Maggie, SLP, Edelbrock) best for target HP 500-700, best for street, bypass valve keeps IAT’s low in traffic, and bypass valve puts rotors free spin drawing little HP in traffic.
Twin Screw (Whipple KB, Lysholm) best for target HP 600-850. Not sure if Whipple’s bypass is a full bypass or if the rotors are compressing recycled air. I know KB still compresses the recycled air causing IATs to spike in traffic.
Centrifugal (ProCharger, Vortec/Paxton) Best for high stall autos setup for the fastest drag strip E.T. over 750 HP, little to no benefit on street.
Turbos can be designed for 500-2000+, but work best without cats. I like the front mount turbonetics kit, but I worry about managing all of the hot side heat and the OEM’s do not run turbos post cats.
Agree, disagree? Do I pass the test teacher?

Disagree. Whoever gave you this info needs a junk punch.

Blk-Ice · 08-15-2012, 01:41 PM

S3XPanther · 08-15-2012, 01:58 PM

Those are some vast over-generalizations there, some of which are completely wrong, and others sound like they're directly from a sales brochure.

audiomikej · 08-15-2012, 05:33 PM

Okay junk punch, watch out before I give you a piston slap
Let me try again.
PD roots
Edelbrock E-Force, low end torque king, great for low boost stock LS engines, great for the street. Cons: the long intake runners will start to be restrictive if you want to turn up the boost.
Magnacharger, great starter supercharger, most versatile, widest operating range, great for the street. It will bolt right up to a stock LS motor and perform great. Proven 100k+ mile durability. If you want to add a big cam, heads, or stroke you can spin to 18,000 RPM. Cons: None, other than 800 HP is the top and a few oil leaks.
Twin Screw
Whipple, a little bigger than the first two. Need fuel upgrades from the start. Can make more power than first two with other engine mods. Lower IATs than first two while under boost. Cons: A little less efficient than first two under ~5000 RPM in low boost mostly stock applications.
KB, For those who like sucking in the rear. Cons, heat soak in stop and go traffic, smaller support base.
Lysholm, For those who want a Lysholm Pros: good belt rap. Cons: cannot spin as fast as Maggie, history not as strong as the others.
Centrifugal
Small Procharger, Vortech/Paxton. Great for those who want to upgrade later to a big Centri. Easier to hook at the strip. Can run a little more boost safely on a stock bottom end because the torque curve starts later. Simple Air-Air intercooler, do not have to mess with IC pumps. Lowest cost to start out. Easier to add alky meth systems. Separate belt so if you break a belt you can still drive home. Cons: narrower power band than PD. Centri owners are mental! You must be wired a little different to own a centri. If you have specific technical questions about centri it is tough to get answers.
Big Procharger, Vortech/Paxton, drag strip king, can go into the thousands of HP. Easier to tune and run than turbo. Cons: will throw a belt if you let off too quickly.
Turbo for those who want turbo(s)
Cons for all of the above F/I over N/A heat soak. In road racing (20 min sessions) and stop and go traffic, watch for heat soak.

Better? What did I miss? I know some would prefer the way a certain F/I sounds over another. For me I think they all sound great!

Detoxx03 · 08-15-2012, 07:55 PM

Unreal · 08-15-2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiomikej

Okay junk punch, watch out before I give you a piston slap
Let me try again.
PD roots
Edelbrock E-Force, low end torque king, great for low boost stock LS engines, great for the street. Cons: the long intake runners will start to be restrictive if you want to turn up the boost.
Magnacharger, great starter supercharger, most versatile, widest operating range, great for the street. It will bolt right up to a stock LS motor and perform great. Proven 100k+ mile durability. If you want to add a big cam, heads, or stroke you can spin to 18,000 RPM. Cons: None, other than 800 HP is the top and a few oil leaks.
Twin Screw
Whipple, a little bigger than the first two. Need fuel upgrades from the start. Can make more power than first two with other engine mods. Lower IATs than first two while under boost. Cons: A little less efficient than first two under ~5000 RPM in low boost mostly stock applications.
KB, For those who like sucking in the rear. Cons, heat soak in stop and go traffic, smaller support base.
Lysholm, For those who want a Lysholm Pros: good belt rap. Cons: cannot spin as fast as Maggie, history not as strong as the others.
Centrifugal
Small Procharger, Vortech/Paxton. Great for those who want to upgrade later to a big Centri. Easier to hook at the strip. Can run a little more boost safely on a stock bottom end because the torque curve starts later. Simple Air-Air intercooler, do not have to mess with IC pumps. Lowest cost to start out. Easier to add alky meth systems. Separate belt so if you break a belt you can still drive home. Cons: narrower power band than PD. Centri owners are mental! You must be wired a little different to own a centri. If you have specific technical questions about centri it is tough to get answers.
Big Procharger, Vortech/Paxton, drag strip king, can go into the thousands of HP. Easier to tune and run than turbo. Cons: will throw a belt if you let off too quickly.
Turbo for those who want turbo(s)
Cons for all of the above F/I over N/A heat soak. In road racing (20 min sessions) and stop and go traffic, watch for heat soak.

Better? What did I miss? I know some would prefer the way a certain F/I sounds over another. For me I think they all sound great!

Not really. Still way over simplifying things. Big centris don't throw belts any more than any other setup.

audiomikej · 08-15-2012, 08:47 PM

Didn't want to be too wordy. Could have said PD for the street, Centri for the strip.

What am I missing? Would love to get into more detail

For example, how to understand this

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_127899.gif

If throwing belts is not the weak link for big centri then what is?

How much power does it take to spin a centri before the boost comes in? (Engine RPM idle-3K)

S3XPanther · 08-15-2012, 08:56 PM

Do you even plan on boosting?

WheelmanSS · 08-15-2012, 10:27 PM

This "PD vs Centri" debate is becoming as stupid as "L99 vs LS3" debates.

Smart Line · 08-16-2012, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WheelmanSS

This "PD vs Centri" debate is becoming as stupid as "L99 vs LS3" debates.

Overwhelming amount of .………
Well craziness,lost,or opinionated ???

Pages and pages of it

VADER SS L99 · 08-16-2012, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiomikej

Okay junk punch, watch out before I give you a piston slap
Let me try again.
PD roots
Edelbrock E-Force, low end torque king, great for low boost stock LS engines, great for the street. Cons: the long intake runners will start to be restrictive if you want to turn up the boost.
Magnacharger, great starter supercharger, most versatile, widest operating range, great for the street. It will bolt right up to a stock LS motor and perform great. Proven 100k+ mile durability. If you want to add a big cam, heads, or stroke you can spin to 18,000 RPM. Cons: This SC has a con in that it will be more expensive than any other SC on the market if you want to make big power. Anything over 550RWHP will require upgrades. It can get to a point that you can spend twice as much on the SC upgrades than the SC kit originally cost. This kit probably has the one of the highest IAT's on the market other than the KB and 1.9 TVS units so again it needs costly upgrades to keep IAT's in check.
Twin Screw
Whipple, a little bigger than the first two. Need fuel upgrades from the start. Can make more power than first two with other engine mods. Lower IATs than first two while under boost. Cons: A little less efficient than first two under ~5000 RPM in low boost mostly stock applications. This one makes more power per pound of boost than all other PD blowers above 8psi so I don't know where you came up with that "a little less efficient" phrase.
KB, For those who like sucking in the rear. Cons, heat soak in stop and go traffic, smaller support base.
Lysholm, For those who want a Lysholm Pros:This is the low end and overall torque king. I have never seen better torque #'s from a SC. good belt rap. Cons: cannot spin as fast as Maggie, history not as strong as the others.
Centrifugal
Small Procharger, Vortech/Paxton. Great for those who want to upgrade later to a big Centri. Easier to hook at the strip. Can run a little more boost safely on a stock bottom end because the torque curve starts later. Simple Air-Air intercooler, do not have to mess with IC pumps. Lowest cost to start out. Easier to add alky meth systems. Separate belt so if you break a belt you can still drive home. Cons: narrower power band than PD. Centri owners are mental! You must be wired a little different to own a centri. If you have specific technical questions about centri it is tough to get answers.
Big Procharger, Vortech/Paxton, drag strip king, can go into the thousands of HP. Easier to tune and run than turbo. Cons: will throw a belt if you let off too quickly.
Turbo for those who want turbo(s)
Cons for all of the above F/I over N/A heat soak. In road racing (20 min sessions) and stop and go traffic, watch for heat soak.

Better? What did I miss? I know some would prefer the way a certain F/I sounds over another. For me I think they all sound great!

Fixed statement are in red. I don't know enough about the others to comment one way or another.

audiomikej · 08-16-2012, 04:29 PM

Thank you Vader SS for the feedback! Tell us how you really feel about the Maggie

Yes S3XPather, I have been exploring three options as an over winter project.
1. Mast L99 stage 1 cam with a 50 shot
2. LS9 cam conversion plus supercharger
3. Lethal Injection’s 3rd circuit appeal cam, they don’t release the specs but they do say the lift and duration are so big the valves never actually close. It’s not an issue because I have access to two Procharger unreleased F.U.-2 blowers that can be 300% overdriven. Setup as twins with waste gates opening at 1 RPM over idle it will maintain full boost to redline. Direct injected at 30 Bar, the setup basically converts my piston style engine into a gas turbine. I like this option because I want to think it will be able to be driven on the street.

I would consider a centri just trying to understand them better. I drive about 6000 miles per year on the street and I do not want a pig that gets less than 12 MPG. I also want to stay with a pump gas 91 octane tune. I would consider alky/meth unless they destroy my cats.
Trying to decide which supercharger would be the most street friendly matched with a L99 plus LS9 cam conversion, LT headers w/ cats, and ZL-1 fuel pump. My driving style is tame on the street, rarely cross 4K RPM. At the track I push it to limit (Road race and 1/8 mile drags)
Current Mod list, C.A.I. CAI, LT headers w/ cats, tune, lowering springs, 20x9 OEM wheels with NT-05 275-40 on all corners. Next up: sway bars.

08-14-2012, 09:24 PM	#1
audiomikej Drives: the wife crazy talking Camaros Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 277 View My Garage	Understanding F/I in a 5th gen Camaro I get it now. These are ballpark HP figures for a 5th gen Camaro. Roots (Maggie, SLP, Edelbrock) best for target HP 500-700, best for street, bypass valve keeps IAT’s low in traffic, and bypass valve puts rotors free spin drawing little HP in traffic. Twin Screw (Whipple KB, Lysholm) best for target HP 600-850. Not sure if Whipple’s bypass is a full bypass or if the rotors are compressing recycled air. I know KB still compresses the recycled air causing IATs to spike in traffic. Centrifugal (ProCharger, Vortec/Paxton) Best for high stall autos setup for the fastest drag strip E.T. over 750 HP, little to no benefit on street. Turbos can be designed for 500-2000+, but work best without cats. I like the front mount turbonetics kit, but I worry about managing all of the hot side heat and the OEM’s do not run turbos post cats. Agree, disagree? Do I pass the test teacher? Last edited by audiomikej; 08-16-2012 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Fixed font

08-14-2012, 09:31 PM	#2
chappy48 Drives: 2010 Camaro Auto 2SS/RS Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Wauconda, IL Posts: 878	Disagree. I'm a roots guy, but to say that Centri's have little to no benefit on the street is just crazy talk. Fact of the matter is, with any supercharger kit you will have at least 500rwhp on tap under your foot. Just about all of these superchargers are good for up to 750-800rwhp. It's only when you really start digging into your wallet and pushing the boost that Centri's run away into the 900-1000+ range. __________________ Built by Jannetty Racing 670rwhp/649rwtq...Scariness to be determined. Jannety Racing forged 416. TVS2300 Supercharger w/Maggie Max Stage 2, 3.6 Pulley, Innovators West 8 rib conversion, OD rear Cog belt drive. Jannetty Racing Rough Idle Cam, LS3 Conversion. Jannetty Racing built 6l80e Trans, Jannetty Racing Custom Converter, Built rear diff w/ 3.45 gears, DSS driveshaft and 1400 hp axles. ADM Twin Pump Fuel System, ADM CAI, Dynatech 1 7/8" Coated Headers, Borla "S" Catback. Custom 18" Forgestar F14's, Nitto 305/45-18 DR's

08-15-2012, 01:41 PM	#4
Blk-Ice 750HP of Twisted Reaper! Drives: Blk 2SS/Blk Carb Fibr NS-1 stripes Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Northern VA & NC Posts: 2,244 View My Garage	__________________ *Fear the LMR Twisted Reaper Brotherhood!*

08-15-2012, 01:58 PM	#5
S3XPanther by Odeon Drives: '12 SS/RS A6 IOM SOLD, '13 1LE IOM Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Good question Posts: 1,707	Those are some vast over-generalizations there, some of which are completely wrong, and others sound like they're directly from a sales brochure. __________________ "It works 60% of the time, every time." "Some say it's a waste of time, others say it's an incredible waste of time." "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." 2013 IOM SS/RS - 1LE. Born 5/6/2013 (1 of 32 1SS IOM 1LE's)

08-15-2012, 05:33 PM	#6
audiomikej Drives: the wife crazy talking Camaros Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 277 View My Garage	Okay junk punch, watch out before I give you a piston slap Let me try again. PD roots Edelbrock E-Force, low end torque king, great for low boost stock LS engines, great for the street. Cons: the long intake runners will start to be restrictive if you want to turn up the boost. Magnacharger, great starter supercharger, most versatile, widest operating range, great for the street. It will bolt right up to a stock LS motor and perform great. Proven 100k+ mile durability. If you want to add a big cam, heads, or stroke you can spin to 18,000 RPM. Cons: None, other than 800 HP is the top and a few oil leaks. Twin Screw Whipple, a little bigger than the first two. Need fuel upgrades from the start. Can make more power than first two with other engine mods. Lower IATs than first two while under boost. Cons: A little less efficient than first two under ~5000 RPM in low boost mostly stock applications. KB, For those who like sucking in the rear. Cons, heat soak in stop and go traffic, smaller support base. Lysholm, For those who want a Lysholm Pros: good belt rap. Cons: cannot spin as fast as Maggie, history not as strong as the others. Centrifugal Small Procharger, Vortech/Paxton. Great for those who want to upgrade later to a big Centri. Easier to hook at the strip. Can run a little more boost safely on a stock bottom end because the torque curve starts later. Simple Air-Air intercooler, do not have to mess with IC pumps. Lowest cost to start out. Easier to add alky meth systems. Separate belt so if you break a belt you can still drive home. Cons: narrower power band than PD. Centri owners are mental! You must be wired a little different to own a centri. If you have specific technical questions about centri it is tough to get answers. Big Procharger, Vortech/Paxton, drag strip king, can go into the thousands of HP. Easier to tune and run than turbo. Cons: will throw a belt if you let off too quickly. Turbo for those who want turbo(s) Cons for all of the above F/I over N/A heat soak. In road racing (20 min sessions) and stop and go traffic, watch for heat soak. Better? What did I miss? I know some would prefer the way a certain F/I sounds over another. For me I think they all sound great! Last edited by audiomikej; 08-16-2012 at 09:23 PM. Reason: fixed font

08-15-2012, 07:55 PM	#7
Detoxx03 ЯєŧąяĐ Єl¡m¡иąŧøя ™ Drives: 2008 Corvette Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Woodward Avenue Posts: 876 View My Garage	__________________ D1SC Procharger 932/758 on E85 A Futral Motorsports Creation https://www.facebook.com/DetoxxAtomic

08-15-2012, 08:47 PM	#9
audiomikej Drives: the wife crazy talking Camaros Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 277 View My Garage	Didn't want to be too wordy. Could have said PD for the street, Centri for the strip. What am I missing? Would love to get into more detail For example, how to understand this http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_127899.gif If throwing belts is not the weak link for big centri then what is? How much power does it take to spin a centri before the boost comes in? (Engine RPM idle-3K)

08-15-2012, 08:56 PM	#10
S3XPanther by Odeon Drives: '12 SS/RS A6 IOM SOLD, '13 1LE IOM Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Good question Posts: 1,707	Do you even plan on boosting? __________________ "It works 60% of the time, every time." "Some say it's a waste of time, others say it's an incredible waste of time." "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." 2013 IOM SS/RS - 1LE. Born 5/6/2013 (1 of 32 1SS IOM 1LE's)

08-15-2012, 10:27 PM	#11
WheelmanSS Logic is dead Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,804	This "PD vs Centri" debate is becoming as stupid as "L99 vs LS3" debates. __________________ 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS (LS3) 573 RWHP 498 RWTQ - Vortech V3 Supercharger - Kooks Stepped Headers, Magnaflow 16580 - Suspension by Pfadt, Hotchkis. 2007 Trailblazer SS- Sold 2001 Trans Am WS6 431 RWHP 408 RWTQ - Sold 1994 Camaro Z28 - Sold

08-16-2012, 04:29 PM	#14
audiomikej Drives: the wife crazy talking Camaros Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 277 View My Garage	Thank you Vader SS for the feedback! Tell us how you really feel about the Maggie Yes S3XPather, I have been exploring three options as an over winter project. 1. Mast L99 stage 1 cam with a 50 shot 2. LS9 cam conversion plus supercharger 3. Lethal Injection’s 3rd circuit appeal cam, they don’t release the specs but they do say the lift and duration are so big the valves never actually close. It’s not an issue because I have access to two Procharger unreleased F.U.-2 blowers that can be 300% overdriven. Setup as twins with waste gates opening at 1 RPM over idle it will maintain full boost to redline. Direct injected at 30 Bar, the setup basically converts my piston style engine into a gas turbine. I like this option because I want to think it will be able to be driven on the street. I would consider a centri just trying to understand them better. I drive about 6000 miles per year on the street and I do not want a pig that gets less than 12 MPG. I also want to stay with a pump gas 91 octane tune. I would consider alky/meth unless they destroy my cats. Trying to decide which supercharger would be the most street friendly matched with a L99 plus LS9 cam conversion, LT headers w/ cats, and ZL-1 fuel pump. My driving style is tame on the street, rarely cross 4K RPM. At the track I push it to limit (Road race and 1/8 mile drags) Current Mod list, C.A.I. CAI, LT headers w/ cats, tune, lowering springs, 20x9 OEM wheels with NT-05 275-40 on all corners. Next up: sway bars.