It scares me people are picking camshafts based on sound not performance - Page 4 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

DsCamaro1 · 03-20-2015, 10:34 PM

Maybe I should go take a motor apart and see it in person. I learn alot better hands on.

LOBBS · 03-20-2015, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DsCamaro1

Maybe I should go take a motor apart and see it in person. I learn alot better hands on.

Honestly, I believe Revell makes a 1/8th or 1/4th scale model small-block Chevy. It's clear plastic. I remember building one as a kid and it's an excellent experience in building a motor while learning all the key pieces.

derklug · 03-20-2015, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bretts

so the second key is a sound effect?

When you have a TracKey for a Boss, besides changing throttle response and timing tables and cam timing tables(5.0's have variable timing on both the intake and exhaust) it enables the launch control and gives you a big cam idle by giving a little more overlap at idle.

PalmerGA · 03-21-2015, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOBBS

Turning off AFM through a tune can help alleviate the issue that some believe AFM contributes to ring failure. Swapping out the AFM-specific lifters, pushrods, etc. and new valve springs for traditional LS3/LS7 equipment will allow you to run a higher lift cam and extend your RPM range. The L99's redline is 6200 versus the LS3's 6600. The AFM lifters have some history of being more prone to collapsing at the redline. One can still retain the advantages of VVT while eliminating AFM and a high lift cam can be run by using a phase limiter that restricts how far the cam can be advanced or retarded so that you don't bury a valve in the piston.

Thanks for all the info. Decades ago I used to help my dad work on his engines, so I understand all the basic functionality of cams/valves/pistons/lifters/etc. It was really pretty straight forward. But that was then... and this is now. Same principles, perhaps, but more variables. You have confirmed my belief that (if and when I go to some sort of street cam), a reputable professional will do the whole job.

ChrisBlair · 03-21-2015, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DsCamaro1

Maybe I should go take a motor apart and see it in person. I learn alot better hands on.

This might help. This is my Buick 455, bored out to 462 but the idea is extremely similar to our Camaro V8s.

The thing my hands are on is a rocker arm; all the red-anodized parts are. I have two valves per cylinder (one intake one exhaust) for 16 rocker arms, 8 to a side naturally. I am setting pre-load in the photo, which is a detail you shouldn't worry about, this engine was designed with a non-adjustable "valvetrain" which you can think of as the valves and rockers. I installed an adjustable one. Yes it was very cold out.

The rocker arm nearest the photo (below my left hand) shows a valve spring and valve, under the rocker arm.

On the opposite side of the engine, you can see the pushrods (thin silver rods) going from the lifter galley to the cylinder head. They pass through the cylinder head via holes, and they end up under the rocker arms.

The cylinder head on the opposite side of where I'm working show the intake ports.

Obscured by assembly grease...the pushrods are sitting on top of the lifters. The lifters are sitting on the cam, which is difficult to make out, it's under the blobs of grease. The engine builders among us might recoil in horrors that I didn't use the cam lube; no worries, I'm using lubriplate assembly lube instead

This image is looking into the cylinder head from the intake port. You can see the valve "stem" and the golden-colored guide for the valve. This is what the air/fuel mixture would "see" as it left the intake manifold.

CamaroCracka · 03-21-2015, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOBBS

Honestly, I believe Revell makes a 1/8th or 1/4th scale model small-block Chevy. It's clear plastic. I remember building one as a kid and it's an excellent experience in building a motor while learning all the key pieces.

They even make one with clear plastic around the cylinders so you can see the piston action. My wife gave one to her grandson, but he never put it together.

chuckstacamaro · 03-21-2015, 09:09 AM

It appears that only True Gear Heads have an Understanding of what a Cam Change will do along with its corresponding components.

If some other persons want a wicked sounding car maybe they should switch/install speaker exhaust upgrade like Ford does for its Mustangs. LOL.....
But seriously to change a Cam just for the sound is not wise....

Swacer · 03-21-2015, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris1SS1LE

I keep reading on various boards and listening to people in person at car events and they are basing there camshaft decisions based on sound. This is nuts, yes it sounds like a 1980's battle of the bands at idle, but your stock clutch or converter, tall gears, and scarier people who use stock valve springs

. Give me a long LSA to make the 376 act more like 396, high tension beehives to zap that valve back asap so the piston doesn't hit the valve if I miss a gear, and a sleeper stealth idle that sounds stock, but will leave jaws hanging. Rather then a a choppy idle, with a powerband range like a Honda (4500-6000), and a broken set of valve springs with some piston damage.

It bothers me more when someone has to stand on their soapbox and sound like a know it all....

el ess A · 03-21-2015, 11:34 AM

This video, although a bit different than how all engines work, explains a basic engine. For those not know what a camshaft may do, this may help give insight to how car parts work, although it may be done a bit differently in different brands of engines.

LOBBS · 03-21-2015, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PalmerGA

Thanks for all the info. Decades ago I used to help my dad work on his engines, so I understand all the basic functionality of cams/valves/pistons/lifters/etc. It was really pretty straight forward. But that was then... and this is now. Same principles, perhaps, but more variables. You have confirmed my belief that (if and when I go to some sort of street cam), a reputable professional will do the whole job.

No problem. VVT is a great development and we'll see it again in the LT-series. It's just a matter of getting rid of the AFM junk so that it's not a liability.

Ludasmith · 03-21-2015, 03:48 PM

I spend more time listening to my car at idle than I do driving WOT. So when I do a cam, it better sound good at idle LOL

adrwhi · 03-22-2015, 08:05 AM

Im not gone lie. I bought my VVT2 cam just for sound. I don't race much and the car my motivation to get up and go to work lol.

christianchevell · 03-22-2015, 09:39 AM

It scares me people are picking camshafts based on sound not performance
I keep reading on various boards and listening to people in person at car events and they are basing there camshaft decisions based on sound. This is nuts, yes it sounds like a 1980's battle of the bands at idle, but your stock clutch or converter, tall gears, and scarier people who use stock valve springs

. Give me a long LSA to make the 376 act more like 396, high tension beehives to zap that valve back asap so the piston doesn't hit the valve if I miss a gear, and a sleeper stealth idle that sounds stock, but will leave jaws hanging. Rather then a a choppy idle, with a powerband range like a Honda (4500-6000), and a broken set of valve springs with some piston damage.

Well to pick this apart would take so much time.... First of all there are articles by reputable cam manufacturers out there that show the effects of LSA on a cam and if you want a lot of LSA......well that may make it more streetable but also less powerful..... And our cam shafts are far and away more powerful than the old hydraulic flat tappet cams of old school.....so I do not know what "boards" or posts you listen too or read or car shows you attend but yes many even on here want to go for a sound and its usually the younger members who never built engines before.

And while beehive springs may be good for a lot of applications as they limit the etc...they are not the top choice for more radical camshafts for our engines which are double valve springs!!!!! Beehives are limited! And what ever you state you sound like one of "those people" who think they know it all but clearly do not! The idle will come with the performance and the LSA but can be in a relatively mild cam shaft also, yet you say two different things: give me one that will make a jaw drop ? when your driving by? or what? and one that sounds relatively stock, a sleeper..... that's not available, its cousin the radical thumping cam kicks is arse as it leaves too much on the table.... so yes some people can get by with stock springs and still have the "choppy idle"..., and if you did miss a gear your rev limiter which you may bounce off of is there to save your bacon if you are that bad... And most power bands for most cams start and come in way down low and peak more toward the top, some may be giving a little torque down low only to make it up later.

I based my cam shaft choice on performance, not the sound or what is popular. I went for the best I could find through reading specs, informed decision from design in the form of the lobes, and what is about the most radical yet not insane. There are a camshaft or two more radical than mine but the PTV clearance is something to worry about, and for those of us running a true high lift cam checking the springs every twenty five thousand or so miles is a must to make sure if one goes south its bye bye or fresh is there waiting...and why not do the set. MY springs far exceed the lift of my .639/.623 cam as they are double springs with .675 rating, my stock limit is not raised on my limiter as it would not perform any better in the land of falling gains in performance on the dyno chart. My pushrods are hardened and the supporting mods I have made and will continue to make are good for my choices as far as my cars engine and its longevity. I am a old motor head though, and I do know what I am doing, sure I read plenty of things on here, and people who absolutely swear they know what they are doing. But to me you sound like you do not even know what your talking about too. And also a lot of 396's were actually 402 cubes.

And were just another engine option and did not have to be built and were mainly for more torque than a small block moving a heavy chevy around. And the cam I have as most aftermarkets require me to have a idle that's at 950 rpm much more than stock, and my lobes of my cam are proprietary design by TSP with nice round lobes as most hydraulic rollers shapes are much different compared to old school cam shafts so they do not" zap" valves back into place.....
While you do make a good point about people basing a camshaft choice on sound and not doing things right, I always though people on here were nuts for buying " night fury" cams which is just a name and no one posting the specs of the cams which are less radical than mine and then posting how great it did on this dyno (versus that dyno when the average seemed to be about way lower than my cam choice on average).

While I researched I did dig and dig and did somewhere find one guy who posted his cam card on the site and found that a night fury was just a o.k. cam in the upper class but far from the head of the class. MY cam would be called the Freight train pulling like a raped ape cam, and the one above it's radicalism something called a gs6 or something like that would be called: Just waiting to kiss a piston : or if the LSA is low it may just blow... Because when you not wanting trouble and you know what your doing you do make informed choices from experience and information not from just what sounds good or what is popular running with the crowd.

And that's why I use driven racing ls30 and broke in my cam with a double break in with br30 and choose what I think is the best cam choice out there for making power but not being insane or ignorant, and not just being a baby about some limiting drivability from cam surge not letting me drive 5 mph with out just coasting into and out of gear. And not leaving a lot on the table in search of the right driveability cam with a pumped up dyno reading by shops trying to sell you that would be trashed by a mustang dyno. It is a case of no matter where you go there you are, and apparently you want to focus on the young and uniformed and that's why I may come here to occasionally help one.....

Norm Peterson · 03-22-2015, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ludasmith

I spend more time listening to my car at idle than I do driving WOT. So when I do a cam, it better sound good at idle LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrwhi

Im not gone lie. I bought my VVT2 cam just for sound. I don't race much and the car my motivation to get up and go to work lol.

I think this is what OP cannot understand (never mind the details that he followed it up with).

I don't get it either - a rough or choppy idle was always a mostly unavoidable consequence of making enough more power than stock at higher rpms to where the low end suffered. Using this same sound to promise performance that isn't there sounds like an attempt to fool people.

I've spec'ed out and built a few engines over the years, too. 4's, 6's, 8's, pushrod motors, and OHC's, with attention to the cam(s) ranging from tweaking the cam timing a bit to replacement with something pretty extreme. Trust me when I say that a lot of research went into any of those efforts. A whole lot, taken together. And if I was to build up a motor now, I'd be right back in the learning & re-learning phase all over again.

Heh . . . VVT is an interesting mention, given that something called a 'Vari-cam' or some such was available back in the mid-1960's. The explanation I got way back then even covered a suggestion of what it might be worth as adapted to a DOHC motor like what's in derklug's car.

You can't learn all this stuff at once.

Norm

03-21-2015, 11:34 AM	#51
el ess A Older Than Dirt Drives: 2010 & 2013 Camaros Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Aiken, SC Posts: 4,564	This video, although a bit different than how all engines work, explains a basic engine. For those not know what a camshaft may do, this may help give insight to how car parts work, although it may be done a bit differently in different brands of engines. __________________ 2010 2SS TE, 1 of 822/2013 Camaro ZL1 vert, 1 of 54

03-22-2015, 09:39 AM	#55
christianchevell old school chevy rodder Drives: 2013 2SS/RS Manual,DM exhaust,CRT Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,587 View My Garage	It scares me people are picking camshafts based on sound not performance I keep reading on various boards and listening to people in person at car events and they are basing there camshaft decisions based on sound. This is nuts, yes it sounds like a 1980's battle of the bands at idle, but your stock clutch or converter, tall gears, and scarier people who use stock valve springs . Give me a long LSA to make the 376 act more like 396, high tension beehives to zap that valve back asap so the piston doesn't hit the valve if I miss a gear, and a sleeper stealth idle that sounds stock, but will leave jaws hanging. Rather then a a choppy idle, with a powerband range like a Honda (4500-6000), and a broken set of valve springs with some piston damage. Well to pick this apart would take so much time.... First of all there are articles by reputable cam manufacturers out there that show the effects of LSA on a cam and if you want a lot of LSA......well that may make it more streetable but also less powerful..... And our cam shafts are far and away more powerful than the old hydraulic flat tappet cams of old school.....so I do not know what "boards" or posts you listen too or read or car shows you attend but yes many even on here want to go for a sound and its usually the younger members who never built engines before. And while beehive springs may be good for a lot of applications as they limit the etc...they are not the top choice for more radical camshafts for our engines which are double valve springs!!!!! Beehives are limited! And what ever you state you sound like one of "those people" who think they know it all but clearly do not! The idle will come with the performance and the LSA but can be in a relatively mild cam shaft also, yet you say two different things: give me one that will make a jaw drop ? when your driving by? or what? and one that sounds relatively stock, a sleeper..... that's not available, its cousin the radical thumping cam kicks is arse as it leaves too much on the table.... so yes some people can get by with stock springs and still have the "choppy idle"..., and if you did miss a gear your rev limiter which you may bounce off of is there to save your bacon if you are that bad... And most power bands for most cams start and come in way down low and peak more toward the top, some may be giving a little torque down low only to make it up later. I based my cam shaft choice on performance, not the sound or what is popular. I went for the best I could find through reading specs, informed decision from design in the form of the lobes, and what is about the most radical yet not insane. There are a camshaft or two more radical than mine but the PTV clearance is something to worry about, and for those of us running a true high lift cam checking the springs every twenty five thousand or so miles is a must to make sure if one goes south its bye bye or fresh is there waiting...and why not do the set. MY springs far exceed the lift of my .639/.623 cam as they are double springs with .675 rating, my stock limit is not raised on my limiter as it would not perform any better in the land of falling gains in performance on the dyno chart. My pushrods are hardened and the supporting mods I have made and will continue to make are good for my choices as far as my cars engine and its longevity. I am a old motor head though, and I do know what I am doing, sure I read plenty of things on here, and people who absolutely swear they know what they are doing. But to me you sound like you do not even know what your talking about too. And also a lot of 396's were actually 402 cubes. And were just another engine option and did not have to be built and were mainly for more torque than a small block moving a heavy chevy around. And the cam I have as most aftermarkets require me to have a idle that's at 950 rpm much more than stock, and my lobes of my cam are proprietary design by TSP with nice round lobes as most hydraulic rollers shapes are much different compared to old school cam shafts so they do not" zap" valves back into place..... While you do make a good point about people basing a camshaft choice on sound and not doing things right, I always though people on here were nuts for buying " night fury" cams which is just a name and no one posting the specs of the cams which are less radical than mine and then posting how great it did on this dyno (versus that dyno when the average seemed to be about way lower than my cam choice on average). While I researched I did dig and dig and did somewhere find one guy who posted his cam card on the site and found that a night fury was just a o.k. cam in the upper class but far from the head of the class. MY cam would be called the Freight train pulling like a raped ape cam, and the one above it's radicalism something called a gs6 or something like that would be called: Just waiting to kiss a piston : or if the LSA is low it may just blow... Because when you not wanting trouble and you know what your doing you do make informed choices from experience and information not from just what sounds good or what is popular running with the crowd. And that's why I use driven racing ls30 and broke in my cam with a double break in with br30 and choose what I think is the best cam choice out there for making power but not being insane or ignorant, and not just being a baby about some limiting drivability from cam surge not letting me drive 5 mph with out just coasting into and out of gear. And not leaving a lot on the table in search of the right driveability cam with a pumped up dyno reading by shops trying to sell you that would be trashed by a mustang dyno. It is a case of no matter where you go there you are, and apparently you want to focus on the young and uniformed and that's why I may come here to occasionally help one..... __________________ 2021 Wild Cherry ZL1 A10, Sunroof, Data, Carbon, Nav, RotoFab Dry CAI, Elite x2, Borla ATK, Driveshaft shop

03-20-2015, 10:34 PM	#43
DsCamaro1 Drives: 2011 SIM 2SS RS L99 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Chicago Posts: 279 View My Garage	Maybe I should go take a motor apart and see it in person. I learn alot better hands on.

03-21-2015, 09:09 AM	#49
chuckstacamaro Drives: 2014 2SS/RS BRM Purchase 03/19/2014 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 538 View My Garage	It appears that only True Gear Heads have an Understanding of what a Cam Change will do along with its corresponding components. If some other persons want a wicked sounding car maybe they should switch/install speaker exhaust upgrade like Ford does for its Mustangs. LOL..... But seriously to change a Cam just for the sound is not wise....

03-21-2015, 03:48 PM	#53
Ludasmith Drives: 2011 Camaro SS Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Posts: 62	I spend more time listening to my car at idle than I do driving WOT. So when I do a cam, it better sound good at idle LOL

03-22-2015, 08:05 AM	#54
adrwhi MonstaBGP Drives: Shadow Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Valdosta Ga Posts: 186 View My Garage	Im not gone lie. I bought my VVT2 cam just for sound. I don't race much and the car my motivation to get up and go to work lol.