Lets have a discussion about various tires for track/HPDE use

[BaylorCamaro]

I feel it is necessary to start a comprehensive thread to serve as a research tool for others and an open discussion about various tires used for road course / HPDE events. I see these threads pop up every now and then (sometimes started by me ) about people inquiring about what tire set up they should go with, etc. To have one centralized place that everyone can come to to discuss one thing and one thing only, tires for road course use would benefit many.

I'd like to add, if you have experience with multiple kinds of tires it would be useful to compare/contrast the tires. To say "X" tire is a good tire is one thing. However, to say "X" tires is great but compared to "Y" tire it has these advantages, etc.

BaylorCamaro review on Goodyear Eagle F1, Michelin Pilot Super Sport & Yokohama ADVAN AD08R.

X25 review on Nitto NT01, Trofeo, Trofeo R, R888, R6, R7, BFG R1, Z214

[BaylorCamaro]

I'll start..

I have used Goodyear Eagle F1's (OEM ZL1 set up), Michelin Pilot Super Sport 285 front, 315 rear on OEM ZL1 wheels, and Yokohama ADVAN AD08R, 305 square set up on 19"x10.5" TSW Wheels.

Obviously my comparison between the three isn't exactly a level playing field since they are different widths and in some instances (Yokohama's) are different wheel sizes. But here is my evaluation and thoughts..

Goodyear Eagle F1's (285x20 front, 305x20 rear, both on OEM ZL1 wheels): The Goodyear's were an overall worse tire than the Michelin Pilot Super Sports, particularly when cold. Once warmed up they showed reasonable levels of grip. They had fairly good feed back as to when at or near the limit, but showed signs of overheating and washing out fairly easy (in Texas summer conditions). No comment on rain conditions as it relates to track use.

Michelin Pilot Super Spot (285x20 front, 315x20 rear, both on OEM ZL1 wheels): The Michelin's showed better handling characteristics when cold as compared to the Goodyears. Once heated up I felt grip levels where above that of the Goodyears and feedback at or near the limit also was fairly linear, making it a predictable tire. Like the Goodyears the Michelins will overheat becoming particularly greasy requiring a cool down lap to bring them back to performance levels. No comment on rain conditions as it relates to track use.

Yokohama ADVAN AD08R (305x19 square set up on 19x10.5" wheels): The Yokohama's are probably in the middle for performance when the tire is cold, slightly above the Goodyear's but below the Michelin's. Once heated up overall grip levels are about on par with the Goodyear's but once again just a little bit below the Michelin's. The Yokohama has fantastic feedback and will "talk" to the driver fairly easy. One characteristic the Yokohama's have above the Goodyear and the Michelin is it handles heat better, getting much less greasy once hot and able to sustain more continuous laps. My last track event at NCM during Camaro Fest was a complete wash out and it was there I discovered these tires do not handle the wet very well, at least not corner entry or exit. Straight line grip seemed to be reasonable given the conditions. Unfortunately I do not have experience with either the Goodyear's or Michelin's in the rain so I cannot compare them.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

Michelin Pilot Super Spot (285x20 front, 315x20 rear, both on OEM ZL1 wheels): The Michelin's showed better handling characteristics when cold as compared to the Goodyears. Once heated up I felt grip levels where above that of the Goodyears and feedback at or near the limit also was fairly linear, making it a predictable tire. Like the Goodyears the Michelins will overheat becoming particularly greasy requiring a cool down lap to bring them back to performance levels. No comment on rain conditions as it relates to track use.

My experience with the PSS is that it makes a pretty damn good rain tire (as long as they've got decent tread depth, anyway).

I hope you don't mind me posting a video, as this should be a wet enough session to get an idea (especially out around 11:00). I was frequently at WOT in 3rd gear. 285/35-18's on 11" wide wheels all around.




Norm

[BaylorCamaro]

That Corvette at around the eleven minute mark reminds me of this track event last month at NCM, several people spinning out. But you're right the PSS look decent in the rain.

[Destructo09]

How would the PSS compare to say a lot of the popular 200TW AutoX tires on the market these days?

My Mickey Thompson Street Comps suck, although they seem better once I got the ideal pressure right which seems to be around 34 PSI hot for autoX. I was running them way too high before.

Still didn't fix the issue of how quickly traction drops off on the M/Ts, I had a co-driver for a 2 day AutoX and he wound up spinning my car twice because of the abrupt drop off at the limit. This guy is a pretty experienced AutoXer and HPDEr as well, and he commented that the tires fall off very quickly.

I'm probably going to do a set of daily tires and some AutoX/HPDE tires, everybody is saying the RE-71R right now is king, the closest they make for us is a 285/35R19.

I've also heard the MPSS is a great tire, but over heats and gets greasy for track use, so it's probably not an ideal HPDE tire, I think you'd be better off with RS3s, RE-71Rs, RE-11s, etc. For a daily driver tire and a HPDE/AutoX tire though maybe the MPSS is the way to go.

[Fab4Fun]

Starting in a week, I'll be running 7 straight days of HPDE/Time Attack/Autocross/Drag events on a new set of PSS. I haven't run them myself, but based on the number of "hot=greasy" comments, I went with 295/30-20 (BMW spec) on 10"F 11"R to try and address that with 1" more tread width (11.6" vs 10.5"). I'm going to log tire wear over the event in case I need to start backing off to get to the end. It's the 30 min practice sessions I'm mostly worried about, vs the 5 laps of a time attack session or single lap of an autocross.

[Destructo09]

Originally Posted by Fab4Fun

Starting in a week, I'll be running 7 straight days of HPDE/Time Attack/Autocross/Drag events on a new set of PSS. I haven't run them myself, but based on the number of "hot=greasy" comments, I went with 295/30-20 (BMW spec) on 10"F 11"R to try and address that with 1" more tread width (11.6" vs 10.5"). I'm going to log tire wear over the event in case I need to start backing off to get to the end. It's the 30 min practice sessions I'm mostly worried about, vs the 5 laps of a time attack session or single lap of an autocross.

That sounds pretty rough on a set of street tires, I feel like you would have been better served by one of the 200TW extreme performance tires.

I look forward to hearing how they do though.

[X25]

My 2 cents:

None of the tires mentioned in the first post are really for track duty, so I'm a bit confused why we're discussing them. In my experience, G:2 handles heat much better than PSS. I can see myself using G:2s at the track if my car is not good for an R-compound choice, but not PSS.

AD08R, G:2, RS-3, RE-11 are all decent street tires that also work at the track, and they don't try to kill you if it rains on your way to the track. I have RS-3s as my street tires since they were very cheap during the closeout of their V1, and they warm up faster than G:2s.

As far as I've heard in Miata forums, RE71 provides excellent traction, but it seems to be a cheater tire, and wears down very fast. Some even reported heat cycling in a short time, so it may not be the best choice. If you're racing and required to run a 200tw tire, then RE71 becomes the first choice tire. If not, it doesn't make sense to me. Looking at its data, it behaves more like a 60 threadwear tire

There's one hero tire which should be mentioned: Nitto NT01. It does not even require warm up (but gets a bit better when it does), is rated 100tw yet wears like iron, and even works when cold! Yes, my brother is very lazy, and he kept his race tires on his Miata whole winter. Seattle winter is mild, but it's still impressive. They handle wet track very well, too, but will try to kill you if you go through a puddle, so perhaps it's not the best idea for rain. They are also not too sensitive to the pressures; excellent for lazy people who don't have pyrometers and log books. What interests me most, still, is the consistency. This tire provides about the same performance, if not a bit better, throughout its life until it cords. As a result, each time you lose time at the track, you don't immediately start wondering if it's the tires that mess with the times. This feature alone if enough to get me sold on these.

Trofeo: Stay away. Very inconsistent. Hoosiers would be better fit if a glory lap is what we're after.

Trofeo R: I've recently tried them at Z/28 size, and they were great! I'm not yet done with my first set, but I have a feeling that this is one of the best choices below time attack tires, if only they were affordable.



R888: I'd stay away. Heat cycles out in a hurry. Very hard to set pressure right.

R6: Excellent. For the first day.

R7: Excellent. For two days.

BFG R1: One of the best handling tires, and it also lasts longer than Hoosiers, but don't expect a miracle.

Z214 mid/hard: even better life than R1, but also less traction. Lasts longer on light vehicles (suggesting high heat kills it).

I think this thread is derailed a bit from the start since we're discussing PSS for HPDE (except wet; it really works well when wet!); we might want to create a new one with focus on track focused tires.

[X25]

NASA's take on tires. Please note NASA probably doesn't care about price, # of heat cycles, or consistency in long term. They primarily use lap times.

Definitive track tire comparison thread

Originally Posted by X25

NASA, one of the major racing bodies in US, already provides a list of tires v.s. their penalty points for road course track use. Even though NASA has a few such lists for various types of races, I picked the time trial, since that seems to be directly relevant to the road course track lap times.

NASA 2014 application form: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...sification.pdf

• This list does not necessarily compare the tires within the same points class with each other, but is very useful to figure out how tires from different classes stand against each other.
• I don't think that these points take longevity/consistency into account, since the time trial races focus on the best lap times.

[Higher point means better tire]

• +15:
  • BFG R1S
  • Hoosier Wet DOT (if used in dry conditions)
• +13:
  • BFG R1 (not an autocross tire!!!)
  • Goodyear Eagle RS AC (auto-cross)
  • Hankook Z214 (C90 & C91 compounds only)
  • Hoosier A6
• +10:
  The following DOT-approved R-compound tires and those with a UTQG treadwear rating of 40 or less not otherwise listed in these rules examples below).
  • Goodyear Eagle RS
  • Hankook Z214 (C71, C70, C51, C50)
  • Hoosier R6
  • Kumho V710, etc.
• +9:
  • Toyo Proxes RR
  • Hankook TD
• +7:
  The following DOT-approved R-compound tires and those with a UTQG treadwear rating of 50 to 130
  • Kumho V700
  • Maxxis RC-1
  • Michelin Pilot Sport Cup
  • Nitto NT01
  • Pirelli PZero Corsa
  • Toyo R888
  • Toyo RA-1
  • Yokahama A048, etc.
• +2:
  DOT-approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200
  • Toyo R1R
  • Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec
  • Bridgestone Potenza RE070
  • Hankook R-S3
  • Kumho Ecsta XS
  • Yokohama Advan A046 &
  • Yokohama Advan Neova AD08
• +30
  Non-DOT-approved racing slicks +30

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by X25

R888: I'd stay away. Heat cycles out in a hurry. Very hard to set pressure right.

I'd heard that's been a problem with these tires from the get-go, with some race series moving to them as a spec tire and right back to the previous tire. Evidently no fix was ever made?

I think this thread is derailed a bit from the start since we're discussing PSS for HPDE (except wet; it really works well when wet!); we might want to create a new one with focus on track focused tires.

Since people tend to start tracking on whatever the car happens to have on it at the moment, it's probably still worth evaluating some of the less capable tires if for no other reason than to suggest what or how much improvement is possible. I've seen Coopers on a tuner Mustang, and I did my first half dozen track days on a set of GY's original F1 Asymmetrics.

I like that NASA list (what other NASA lists exist?), though it now needs updating to include more recently introduced tires (RE71R, A7, R7, V720, maybe others) and I think for our purposes here we'd really want to be able to extend it a ways into the negative number range and/or differentiate between dry and wet conditions. Then keep a points value summary in post #1.


Norm

[Destructo09]

I know for me, I don't do anymore than 2 HPDEs or so a year, and I do many more autocrosses, so buying "track tires" isn't really a smart idea.

So, this thread is at least helpful for me in picking out a 200TW tire that's great for autocross and will handle track duty a couple times a year.

I'm hitting VIR Full course this weekend with M/T Street Comps, through autocross i've found the pressure they seem to like so it will be interesting to see how they do compared to this April when I was letting them get up to 40 psi hot. I found 34 PSI seems to be about right for them, so I expect some decent difference in grip at the track.

I did find though the DTC70s I just put on the front will easily get the car into ABS with these tires, they do grip a bit better once warm though, so we'll see how the braking goes.

[X25]

Originally Posted by Destructo09

I know for me, I don't do anymore than 2 HPDEs or so a year, and I do many more autocrosses, so buying "track tires" isn't really a smart idea.

So, this thread is at least helpful for me in picking out a 200TW tire that's great for autocross and will handle track duty a couple times a year.

I'm hitting VIR Full course this weekend with M/T Street Comps, through autocross i've found the pressure they seem to like so it will be interesting to see how they do compared to this April when I was letting them get up to 40 psi hot. I found 34 PSI seems to be about right for them, so I expect some decent difference in grip at the track.

I did find though the DTC70s I just put on the front will easily get the car into ABS with these tires, they do grip a bit better once warm though, so we'll see how the braking goes.

Aren't M/T drag tires? Why would you use them at the road course track? I'm sure the very soft sidewall is great hard launches, but it's also probably the worst thing in a corner. Also, wouldn't they overheat in no time? After all, they're designed to warm up right away. Good luck.

[cvp33]

I'll see you Saturday at VIR. Look me up when you get there!

I love my DTC 60/70's. You can stand the car on its head with these and they last and last. Doesn't hurt that they're $150 to $300 less than Carbotechs or Porterfields. As for tires/rims. I run a dedicated track setup - 18" wheels with Continental scrubs. In the rain I just run my street setup 255/45F and 295/35R Michelin Pilot Supersports.I justify this for 3 reasons - cost, performance, risk.

Cost - my track setup cost me right at $1,000. Much cheaper than running my Michelin Pilot Supersports @ $1,600 a set.

Performance - 18" wheels are light than stockers and the Continentals are like glue at the right temp and pressure.

Risk - If I "hurt" a stock wheel during the weekend I'm done and the car's getting towed home. If I hurt my track setup I switch to the streets and drive at 9/10ths. I also have a lower replacement cost as the rims are $180 apiece.

Originally Posted by Destructo09

I know for me, I don't do anymore than 2 HPDEs or so a year, and I do many more autocrosses, so buying "track tires" isn't really a smart idea.

So, this thread is at least helpful for me in picking out a 200TW tire that's great for autocross and will handle track duty a couple times a year.

I'm hitting VIR Full course this weekend with M/T Street Comps, through autocross i've found the pressure they seem to like so it will be interesting to see how they do compared to this April when I was letting them get up to 40 psi hot. I found 34 PSI seems to be about right for them, so I expect some decent difference in grip at the track.

I did find though the DTC70s I just put on the front will easily get the car into ABS with these tires, they do grip a bit better once warm though, so we'll see how the braking goes.

[cvp33]

Originally Posted by X25

Aren't M/T drag tires? Why would you use them at the road course track? I'm sure the very soft sidewall is great hard launches, but it's also probably the worst thing in a corner. Also, wouldn't they overheat in no time? After all, they're designed to warm up right away. Good luck.

It's actually a brand new UHP tire.