Why is Z/28 more heralded that the SS?

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Well, idle test is marginal (source elsewhere on this forum), and added curb weight has to be accelerated...

So the issue is the engine working harder to drag the extra weight around?

[LOWDOWN]

That's only one factor, but it IS a factor...more "work" equals more fuel equals more potential emissions...

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If Ford can modify their 5.0 to the 302, why can't Chevy modify the LS3. I mean at the least, a modified LS3 in the Z28 may work out. If they wanted to do the bare minimum to make the Z28 have higher HP but not piss off the Vette guys, then why couldn't they do it?

Like I said before, the greatest Camaro ever doesn't even get its own engine. It's a transplant from another car. Wtf is up with that?

Well, assuming you are a Chevy guy as you report owning several, then you would already know Chevy and GM uses a corporate approach to engines and parts assemblies which are used throughout brands and lines. That was always a thing I liked about Chevy years ago about the interchangeabilty factor with parts. But, then is not now, and we don't have the wide arrray of choices in engines like in yesteryear. Today one has to dance with who brought you there. Chevy motors today are compilations of different materials built around the same basic blueprint, to meet different demands. It's a wiches brew. The LS7 is a stand alone LS. My understanding is the Ford model is a modular design that can be built upward, without different material used in connection rods, pistons, valves etc fom one version to another like the LS family.... I haven't spent much time on the subject but that's my basic understanding of the Ford engine. Like back when, a steel crank, forged rod's and pistons, build from the bottom up in any way you like and it will be a solid platform to move upward from. GMPP has the off road stuff....but no warranty. The factory LS's are concocted from specially blended materials. Validation is a time consuming and expensive measure GM does not wish to undertake. Put one different set of valve springs in a factory LS and they have to spend millions and counless hours testing the motor to meet fail safe standards. IMHO Chevy needs to address this issue within the corporate ladder and modify this seemingly unsurpassable hurdle it has in the engine development department to quickly adapt and modify a engine without so much red tape. I know I am wrong and don't wan't to be a downer but why could Ford make the adjustment so quickly in the power numbers department without a GG tax confounds me.

[shaffe]

Now dumb question here, and I'm not trying to stir the pot I swear .

Wouldn't a 427 powered camaro kind of go against what the Z28 was all about back in the day? That seems to be the consensus I see here is that people want a new Z28 to be what is was back in the day, and or a direct competitor to the boss.

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Now dumb question here, and I'm not trying to stir the pot I swear .

Wouldn't a 427 powered camaro kind of go against what the Z28 was all about back in the day? That seems to be the consensus I see here is that people want a new Z28 to be what is was back in the day, and or a direct competitor to the boss.

Kind of? For starters, the Camaro is way overweight as it is. When I look at it, my eyes see 'Camaro'. When I drive it, my brains say 'Chevelle'. It doesn't need a 427. It needs a diet

The Z/28 should be lighter than an SS. Less sound-deadening, etc. It should be Chevy's response to the Mustang Laguna Seca package. Z/28 buyers should be sacrificing a few creature comforts for more performance.

[2cnd chance]

When was a Z28 made lighter than other Camaros?

It did not have a BB in it otherwise it could be ordered with everything, but an auto, vert. and air. The new 427 LS7 is a high revving SB just like the 302 was. Yes the Camaro is bigger for the 5Gen, but that doesn't keep it from being a Z28. Take a look at what Pedders has done with this chassis. The 5Gen has a very rigid chassis which is exactly what you need for a brilliant handling car.

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

When was a Z28 made lighter than other Camaros?

It did not have a BB in it otherwise it could be ordered with everything, but an auto, vert. and air. The new 427 LS7 is a high revving SB just like the 302 was. Yes the Camaro is bigger for the 5Gen, but that doesn't keep it from being a Z28. Take a look at what Pedders has done with this chassis. The 5Gen has a very rigid chassis which is exactly what you need for a brilliant handling car.

I didn't post that it was, actually. However.

I said the Z/28 should be lighter than an SS. We're not going to be able to expect Chevy to take a 283 and a 327 and mash them together this time. The original Camaro SS had a 350 as the smallest engine available, and later that year offered a 396. In the 21st Century, I doubt we can ever expect such a broad range of V8 engine choices ever again on one model car. The other way to increase power:weight is by removing pounds

The Z/28 was meant for racing in the Trans Am series, and you would agree that lighter cars would have an advantage in power to weight, I would bet Also makes them potentially more nimble

And originally, the Z/28 could not be had "with everything". You could not get air conditioning or an auto trans on the first Z/28s as you mention.

Certainly you can see how a car with a 302 CID engine, no air conditioning, and no auto trans at least had the potential to be lighter than a car with an auto trans, 350 CID mill, and a/c. Even the wheels were DZ specific on the original Z/28s

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by ChrisBlair

I didn't post that it was, actually. However.

I said the Z/28 should be lighter than an SS. We're not going to be able to expect Chevy to take a 283 and a 327 and mash them together this time. The original Camaro SS had a 350 as the smallest engine available, and later that year offered a 396. In the 21st Century, I doubt we can ever expect such a broad range of V8 engine choices ever again on one model car. The other way to increase power:weight is by removing pounds

The Z/28 was meant for racing in the Trans Am series, and you would agree that lighter cars would have an advantage in power to weight, I would bet Also makes them potentially more nimble

And originally, the Z/28 could not be had "with everything". You could not get air conditioning or an auto trans on the first Z/28s as you mention.

Certainly you can see how a car with a 302 CID engine, no air conditioning, and no auto trans at least had the potential to be lighter than a car with an auto trans, 350 CID mill, and a/c. Even the wheels were DZ specific on the original Z/28s

Sorry my question was rhetorical. Yes a lighter car is better, as long as it has a very rigid chassis with which the suspension can be at its optimum.
My point was that the 5Gen should not be without a Z28 because of its weight. It, the 5Gen can and does perform very well. And adding the LS7 will make it a Boss eater, which was its very mission many years ago.

BTW, a 1st Gen Camaro SS350 weighed very much the same as a Z28. Also the Z28 wheels were 15" vs. the 14" on an SS350.

[ChrisBlair]

Yes, about 3500 lbs. What the Z/28 lost in engine weight it made up in underpinnings...the F41(?) wasn't a light package if I remember right.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by ChrisBlair

Yes, about 3500 lbs. What the Z/28 lost in engine weight it made up in underpinnings...the F41(?) wasn't a light package if I remember right.

So let's get GM to build a 5Gen Z28 so the 5Gen has what the other Gens have all had!

[OldScoolCamaro]

As much as we would like to bring up nostalgia, Trans Am, Mark Donahue, 302's, or anything with that period, it has no real meaning to today other than some linking of legacy to a storied name....Z28.. The LSA runs and feels just a old time big block rat motor. The LS7, if you have ever been around one that is tweeked a bit, has a devilsh high whinning, screaming, devilish noise to it. It's a screamin demon small block for sure. We want NA in a Z28, not SC. Do not confuse CID #'s with motor configuration, a LS7 is a small block of the latest technology as there ever was one. Yes, weight's an issue, and a dead horse of topical discussion. Add on's with the ZL1, well thought out and planned within a pound conscious development program to bring the best beef to the table in it's leanest form, brings the ZL1 into a 1970 Chevelle LS6 range with an automatic. Not acceptable for a Z28. I know thats clear to all of us and it's no new news. We have discussed this time and over again. The car has been built here several times over...and is ready for delivery, GM just needs to give the green light. This topic is like Groundhog day....part 2, and 3, and 4...and.....

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

As much as we would like to bring up nostalgia, Trans Am, Mark Donahue, 302's, or anything with that period, it has no real meaning to today other than some linking of legacy to a storied name....Z28.. The LSA runs and feels just a old time big block rat motor. The LS7, if you have ever been around one that is tweeked a bit, has a devilsh high whinning, screaming, devilish noise to it. It's a screamin demon small block for sure. We want NA in a Z28, not SC. Do not confuse CID #'s with motor configuration, a LS7 is a small block of the latest technology as there ever was one. Yes, weight's an issue, and a dead horse of topical discussion. Add on's with the ZL1, well thought out and planned within a pound conscious development program to bring the best beef to the table in it's leanest form, brings the ZL1 into a 1970 Chevelle LS6 range with an automatic. Not acceptable for a Z28. I know thats clear to all of us and it's no new news. We have discussed this time and over again. The car has been built here several times over...and is ready for delivery, GM just needs to give the green light. This topic is like Groundhog day....part 2, and 3, and 4...and.....

Does that make us Bill Murray?

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Sorry my question was rhetorical. Yes a lighter car is better, as long as it has a very rigid chassis with which the suspension can be at its optimum.
My point was that the 5Gen should not be without a Z28 because of its weight. It, the 5Gen can and does perform very well. And adding the LS7 will make it a Boss eater, which was its very mission many years ago.

BTW, a 1st Gen Camaro SS350 weighed very much the same as a Z28. Also the Z28 wheels were 15" vs. the 14" on an SS350.

All true, and as you mentioned in your first response, back in the day no vert was available on the Z/28 either. Now while a SS350 vert with auto and ac would be heavier than a Z/28, you are correct that it had nothing to do with the Z/28 being made lighter in any way, it was just that the SS was heavier due to options ordered that could not be ordered on the Z/28 (again, exactly as you said). You can certainly count me as one of the more "purist" Z/28 fanatics on this forum, but I can get behind the LS7 fifth gen. Z/28 right away as a fifth gen version with it's added weight needs something like the LS7 to counteract that weight in a higher HP/torque, higher revving NA engine to make a good fifth gen Z/28. I just don't see a production LS3 being enough HP/torque for a practical fifth gen Z/28 (and forget about wilder LS3 crate engines, they are a long way from ever being certified for a production vehicle). So if you don't go with an LS3, you want a NA engine so that excludes the LSA and LS9, what production Chevy/GM engine does that leave for an honest 5th gen Z/28? Hmmmmm, the only practical choice I see left is...................................the LS7!
Clyde

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

As much as we would like to bring up nostalgia, Trans Am, Mark Donahue, 302's, or anything with that period, it has no real meaning to today other than some linking of legacy to a storied name....Z28.. The LSA runs and feels just a old time big block rat motor. The LS7, if you have ever been around one that is tweeked a bit, has a devilsh high whinning, screaming, devilish noise to it. It's a screamin demon small block for sure. We want NA in a Z28, not SC. Do not confuse CID #'s with motor configuration, a LS7 is a small block of the latest technology as there ever was one. Yes, weight's an issue, and a dead horse of topical discussion. Add on's with the ZL1, well thought out and planned within a pound conscious development program to bring the best beef to the table in it's leanest form, brings the ZL1 into a 1970 Chevelle LS6 range with an automatic. Not acceptable for a Z28. I know thats clear to all of us and it's no new news. We have discussed this time and over again. The car has been built here several times over...and is ready for delivery, GM just needs to give the green light. This topic is like Groundhog day....part 2, and 3, and 4...and.....

That little short clip of the L28 that Pete posted, where it comes toward you then stops and backs up, is incredibly awesome to hear. Absolutely, positively screaming SBC at idle complete with big cam lope, man that takes me back and I'll bet an LS7 would sound and feel so right in a fifth gen with Z/28 emblems.
Clyde