Food for thought on the Ameircan muscle car...

[Scotsman]

I sat here as I read this article and thought to myself how many of you are hell bent on buying the V8 versions of the Camaro, which is cool. At the same time what if GM only made the Camaro in a 6 cylinder? Would you still buy it? Probably not. So with all the loyalty chalked up by members on this board, if push came to shove I woner how many would actually turn out as loyal as they lead on.

May 21, 2008: 5:39 AM EDTA world of difference
Two cars built on the other side of the globe: The Nissan Cube points the way to the automotive future; the Pontiac G8, back to the past.
By Alex Taylor III, senior editor
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- Simply by chance, a pair of new cars fell into my hands last weekend that perfectly demonstrated the yin and yang of today's auto industry. The Pontiac G8 was powerful, exciting, fun to drive - and as obsolete as the buggy whip. The Nissan Cube was homely, utilitarian and slow - and we all ought to get used to it, because that's what most of us are going to be driving in the future.

An era of personal indulgence in automobiles - when prosperity and cheap gasoline made big and fast available to everyone - is rapidly being replaced by an age of limits. The brakes are being applied by the terrible troika of climate change, government fuel economy standards and $4 gasoline.

There is no other alternative. It may come a surprise to conspiracy theorists, but the auto companies and the oil refiners haven't been collaborating to keep hyper-efficient cars off the market. That's because they don't exist. There isn't a technological path towards achieving a fleet average of 35 miles per gallon by 2020 - as the federal government wants - or 44 miles per gallon as California is pushing for.

For all the happy talk about alternative fuels, the cars of tomorrow will of necessity be much lighter, smaller and slower than the ones of today. There is simply no other alternative if you want to use less energy.

So a car like the V-8 powered Pontiac represents the last of its kind. Too bad, because on its own terms, the G8 succeeds. Built in Australia by GM's (GM, Fortune 500) Holden affiliate, the $31,000 G8 represents an excellent blend of value and performance. It's a five-passenger midsize car that hugs the road and accelerates with authority. The 361-horsepower engine rockets the car to 60 miles per hour in 5.8 seconds, as measured by Popular Mechanics, while producing appropriate noises from its twin exhaust pipes.

Yet with a combined fuel economy rating of 18 miles per gallon, there is no way that this car can exist in GM's lineup. It is simply too inefficient. GM estimated the annual fuel cost of the G8 at $2,502 a year based on 15,000 miles of driving - and that was when gas was $3 a gallon. These days, you can hike that number by a third to more than $3,300.

Next to the muscularly handsome G8, the Nissan (NSANY) Cube looks like a reject from "Toy Story." The name says it all: The Cube is a box on wheels. Tiny wheels at that, powered by a tiny motor. Ninety horsepower is all the Cube can muster, straining to get its driver and passengers to 60 miles per hour in more than twice the time it takes the Pontiac.

Yet for the kind of around-town driving most of us do every day, the Cube fills the bill. There's lots of space inside (Nissan says it has more room than a Mercedes S-class), a handy cargo door in the rear and fuel economy that even a miser can enjoy. It's estimated at 35 to 40 miles per gallon.

While the Cube offers a different driving experience than the G8, I'd be hard pressed to say it is worse. The smaller Cube is easier to turn and park, and at 1,600 pounds lighter, it feels more nimble and fun to drive.

The Cube has been on sale for a decade in Japan and a new model, created for the U.S. market, arrives here next summer. Whether it will catch on is hard to say. Toyota sells about 4,000 units a month of another box-shaped car, the Scion Xb; still, this is a narrow market and it is anybody's guess as to how wide the niche will be.

Yet there is no confusion about the direction of the overall trends. Propelled by government regulation, environmental awareness and plain old economics, they are headed away from the G8 and directly toward the Cube.

A couple of years ago, tobacco use finally reached the tipping point where it no longer became acceptable to light up in public. Today, it is hard to imagine that we ever did.

Powerful, high-displacement automobiles like the G8 are approaching that same juncture. At some point, people will find it sociably unacceptable to drive them. Exactly when that day arrives is anybody's guess, but it surely isn't too far off.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/20/news...ion=2008052105


Now of course I believe we'll still have cars like the G8 around, just not as we know them today. How many of you would be willing to put your dollars up for one of these future alpha/zeta cars I don't know? That doesn't really matter though because I know I will.

[NOODLESgoneWILD]

Id still buy one...All you have to do is Super or Turbo charge it....Not even an issue!

[chadrcr]

Many Camaro5 members already plan to buy the V6, many state they will consider it, many may be surprised by the performance/price combination and surprise themselves by buying the V6. Some will only buy a
V8 no matter what. Most will be loyal, even if only by keeping their
pre-5thgen Camaros instead of buying 'your' V6 only camaro.

[TheMadHatter99]

I've wanted a V8 Camaro since I first heard it was coming out, but as time presses on I've been considering the V6 more and more. At this point I've just decided I'm going to have to wait and drive both and then see where my finances lie before I can make a true decision. Either way, the important thing is I AM going to buy a Camaro just as soon as I can.

And as for it being "socially unacceptable" to drive a big V8-powered car, it will be a cold day in hell before I join any social circle that would look down on me based on what I drive and furthermore, I'd never give someone who cares that much about "socially responsible vehicles" enough credit to alter what I drive.

[Scotsman]

Originally Posted by NOODLESgoneWILD

Id still buy one...All you have to do is Super or Turbo charge it....Not even an issue!

Depends on who you ask.

Here's the catch, we need people to buy this car. With that said there needs to be a reason for consumers to purchase enough Camaro's so that the Camaro's future remains secure. I'd be pretty perturbed if GM just made the 5th gen and then said, "well, we can't sell a muscle car if it doesn't have a V8", or, "it's not as big as it once was, if we can't make it almost 200 inches long there's just no point", that's simply untrue. Hyundai is just getting into the RWD performance car arena and they have stellar product with fuel efficient engine technology waiting in the wings that will raise the performance bar of the "BK" cars even higher.

[Scotsman]

Originally Posted by TheMadHatter99

And as for it being "socially unacceptable" to drive a big V8-powered car, it will be a cold day in hell before I join any social circle that would look down on me based on what I drive and furthermore, I'd never give someone who cares that much about "socially responsible vehicles" enough credit to alter what I drive.

I couldn't care less about what people think. However perception drives actions and unless GM has a super duper fuel efficient V8 the negative stereotype of V8's being "gas hogs" isn't going to go away. Thus fewer and fewer will be sold. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we NEVER saw a Camaro SS, unless it's simply too far in the development program to be canceled. Over the past 4 years more American consumers have been buying 4 cylinders than any other engine configuration. Expect to see a 4 cylinder Camaro sooner than later I say.

[z28camaro2471]

I will need to sell my 79 Z to get a new Camaro (for room in the garage and for a down payment). If I couldn't get a v8 manual 5th gen, well then I wouldn't buy a 5th gen. That doesn't make me any less loyal than anyone who does buy a v6. It's just not my thing.

That said, unless we found out that the earth is actually flat or that pigs can fly, I don't think we need to worry about this now. The 5th gen will have a v8 and it will haul a$$.

Will the 6th gen Camaro have a v8 option if gas keeps going up? I would still guess yes but it will be a small displacement super/turbo charged motor. I would be cool with that.

In the 70s everyone thought we would never ever see the same type of muscle cars again. Well they were right. Now we have ones that handle, brake and are reliable. I still and always will love "old school" performance. Loud, inefficient, obnoxious and in your face. I'm just saying that from a technology standpoint, today's cars are all around better performers.

Will there be a temporary decline in performance? Yes. Will it last forever? My guess would be no. Advancements will be made to extract more power from less motor and to make cars weigh less.

Long live the musclecar made by Chevrolet!!

[z28collection]

i would still buy one but my first mod would be an LSX conversion.

[GTAHVIT]

I won't buy one without a V8. Call me what you like. I wan't what only a V8 can provide. And I want all of it.

Should I not be able to buy a V8 Gen V, I will build a 69 and drope a crate motor in it. But, I'm not going to use it as a daily driver. If I were, I'd easily consider the V6 as one of my options.

[TAG UR IT]

Originally Posted by z28collection

i would still buy one but my first mod would be an LSX conversion.

There's someone w/ the right idea!!!

[Rock36]

You know even in the mid to late 70s when environmental stuff really started to kick off, and there was the gas crisis, big cars never really went away.

Some makes and models dissappeared, but many others still stuck around...they were just sold in smaller amounts.

[Emher]

I'm still buying the V8. By the time I have the money for it I can afford the gas. The only way I'd consider the V6 was if it sounded like the V8 and that's just not gonna happen.

[chadrcr]

Originally Posted by Rock36

You know even in the mid to late 70s when environmental stuff really started to kick off, and there was the gas crisis, big cars never really went away.

Some makes and models dissappeared, but many others still stuck around...they were just sold in smaller amounts.

Yea, there were still BIG cars, but the motors got smaller and weaker. Still did not get good gas mileage like today's cars..... I had an old '81 GMC 1500 with a 305---135hp ---12/13 highway mpg. my 06---300hp --22 mpg on the hiway.

[Dan]

The author obviously isn't taking into account the people who will happily pay more for gas (myself included) than drive his gutless, boring little rice burner.