WTF!

[GunnyG]

shines lil "teachers suck, indoctrinating kids" routine was funny. Teachers are not auto-no fire. Especially his woulda been new hire brother. It takes roughly 10-12 years to reach tenure. Do plenty of them suck? Sure do. But plenty parents suck too. They expect teachers to do their job. Sorry if I offend any parents, I'm not one.

'Nuff said by all on this deal. My last post on this topic was supposed to be 10 ago. Good luck to your brother shines. I'll keep a look out for him near the Chula Vista underpass just in case he prefers borrowing to working. Seems to pay better IMHO. And, no taxes on that. LoL I'm done.

[PQ]

Actually, if you consider the article on that China factory I've worked those conditions myself here in the US.

But the suicide thing is interesting. If you consider 500,000 workers in that factory and 14 of them commited suicide in a 16 month period, that might actually be pretty good in comparison.

Found this about the US as a whole.

The eleventh leading cause of death in the U.S., accounting for 32,439 deaths. The overall rate was 10.9 suicide deaths per 100,000 people. An estimated eight to 25 attempted suicides occur per every suicide death.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publi...on/index.shtml

So while that factory in China has a suicide rate of 2.3 per every 100,000 per year the United States has a rate of 10.9 per every 100,000 per year.

[ColdCamaroSS]

Originally Posted by PQ

That's perfectly fair. But you have to remember that China's Gov. doesn't care. Ours does. (at least by order lol) AND it's why China is kicking our ass.

As far as the vendetta deal imo so be it. It's unfair but that's the way it goes. Life isn't fair. I'd be totally pissed if it were me but I've always accepted, wether reluctantly or otherwise, that some things are unfair. It's no reason to unionize. I can tell you in my 25+ years of employment and business ownership and the countless people I've talked to I've only heard of a few incidents where there was unfair treatment by an employer in a good job. (key being good job)

I guess the key is entitlement vs incentive. Pay should depend on performance. But that's just my opinion.

I get what you are saying but I've seen the opposite. I've seen the workers take far more advantage of the companies I've worked for than the other way around.

I just tend to lean on the free enterprise side of things. But I'd still take a union job if offered. After paying dues you're still gonna make more money than non-union.

If my employees (theoretically) decided to unionize I'd just fire them all and replace them. OR sell the business as quickly as I could. It's WAY easier for a non-union company to compete most of the time.

And in a small town I won't necessarily disagree. UNTIL that union starts to make it where the plant can't compete. It's happened. Then the plant shuts down and the town Fed themselves. Right here in Bama in the late 70s a steel mill was being built and the owners shut down when the employees decided to unionize BEFORE the plant was open. The company sold the cleared property and went somewhere else. Client of ours was one of the employees. He said he voted yes because it sounded so good.

This is not all cases but greedy unions have driven jobs overseas and that's just sad. (GREEDY unions, I understand that not all are)

Well, I guess we've seen both sides of the coin then. I think the Chinese GOV cares a great deal with regards to pandering companies and profits than the USA and stymie workers rights in the process. Unions have played a small role with jobs being driven overseas, but I highlighted the main factor, GREED. Corporate greed IMO. Look, I don't mind rich people being rich, but the gap between the rich and the poor has risen so much over the past 30 years. Blue collar salaries have been stagnant, and that is proof in the provebial pudding. It is just cheaper to employee outside labor.

A recent article points out the iphone as a perfect example. It would cost approximately $65 more to manufacture the iphone in the USA. Huge profits would still be made by Apple, but employ Americans. Now, the article goes on to describe how impossible it would be, due to the way the Iphone is made, that over 400,000 chinese workers assembly it by hand, living on company grounds in dorms and that the supply chain for the components wouldnt work due trade structures....but $65 dollars more to have it made in the good ol' USA, but gotta keep those stock holders happy.

Union or not, we have reached a point in our society that unless a major industrial breakthrough(s) happens that enables an employment of a large amount of people, instead of minimal wage consumer/consumption based jobs then it won't be long before we are the cheap labor of the world.

Some people want job security and unions help provide security and stability for blue-collar workers. Obvisously, I am a Union Brother but that doesn't make me blind, I am very close to accepting a potentially high risk venture that would make me much more happy as well as being wealthier but it has the potential to fail (without fault of my own), making my decision much more difficult.

[ColdCamaroSS]

Originally Posted by PQ

Actually, if you consider the article on that China factory I've worked those conditions myself here in the US.

But the suicide thing is interesting. If you consider 500,000 workers in that factory and 14 of them commited suicide in a 16 month period, that might actually be pretty good in comparison.

Found this about the US as a whole.

So while that factory in China has a suicide rate of 2.3 per every 100,000 per year the United States has a rate of 10.9 per every 100,000 per year.

Yeah, the suicide article might not be the best example. I was quick to use that one instead of one regarding unionization in china and how quickly they stomp out worker's rights. With as many people chinese corporations have to select from, hiring and firing thousands of people per day isn't uncommon. I will also note, that many workers get paid more for the work they perform then they would have earned otherwise.

The article I wanted to post (new york times) mentioned how 10,000 early iphones were already made with plastic screens, but then Jobs wanted a glass screen, so the specs went out and they woke up thousands of workers in the middle of the night to replace the screens on the ones already made. No where in America, would you be able to employ that many people, living together (12 to a room) and wake them up to go to work. It will be interesting when chinese workers actually go thru the same union process, that we as a country did in the early 20th century. It will happen and the communistic government won't be able to do a thing about it.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by ColdCamaroSS

Well, I guess we've seen both sides of the coin then. I think the Chinese GOV cares a great deal with regards to pandering companies and profits than the USA and stymie workers rights in the process. Unions have played a small role with jobs being driven overseas, but I highlighted the main factor, GREED. Corporate greed IMO. Look, I don't mind rich people being rich but the gap between the rich and the poor is has risen so much over the past 30 years, while blue collar salaries have been stagnant is proof in the provebial pudding. It is just cheaper to employee outside labor.

A recent article points out the iphone as a perfect example. It would cost approximately $65 more to manufacture the iphone in the USA. Huge profits would still be made by Apple, but employee Americans. Now, the article goes on to describe how impossible it would be, due to the way the Iphone is made, with over 400,000 chinese workers assembly by hand, living on grounds in dorms and that the supply chain for the components couldnt work due trade agreements....but $65 dollars more to have it made in the good ol' USA, but gotta keep those stock holders happy.

Union or not, we have reached a point in our society that unless a major industrial breakthrough happens that enables to employ a large amount of people instead of minimal wage consumer/consumption based jobs then it won't be long before we are the cheap labor of the world.

Some people want job security and unions help provide security and stability for blue-collar workers. Obvisously, I am a Union Brother but that doesn't make me blind, I am very close to accepting a potentially high risk venture that would make me much more happy and wealthier but has the potential to fail (without fault of my own), making my decision much more difficult.

I won't argue any of that.

Unions are only one part of the deal too. I don't get hung up on the issue because it's not the big problem. IMO Gov. is the biggest problem and I'll leave it at that.

In my business I would go out of business in the first month if I had to buy American made product. In fact our product can't be made in America. It would cost too much. Our clients would not be able to afford it. I mean TRIPLE the cost. If the Gov were to impose tariffs on all imports more it would hurt my business. I'm still FOR it. But I'll take a big hit. I'll pass it along to my clients accordingly the best I can but I may lose clients over it.

I don't have the answers but I know who does. lol

[PQ]

Originally Posted by ColdCamaroSS

Yeah, the suicide article might not be the best example. I was quick to use that one instead of one regarding unionization in china and how quickly they stomp out worker's rights. With as many people chinese corporations have to select from, hiring and firing thousands of people per day isn't uncommon. I will also note, that many workers get paid more for the work they perform then they would have earned otherwise.

The article I wanted to post (new york times) mentioned how 10,000 early iphones were already made with plastic screens, but then Jobs wanted a glass screen, so the specs went out and they woke up thousands of workers in the middle of the night to replace the screens on the ones already made. No where in America, would you be able to employ that many people, living together (12 to a room) and wake them up to go to work. It will be interesting when chinese workers actually go thru the same union process, that we as a country did in the early 20th century. It will happen and the communistic government won't be able to do a thing about it.

And we'll all be paying a TON for stuff. BUT, we will have business brought back to the states as well.

Of course all of this seems simple on paper.

[shines]

Originally Posted by PQ

And we'll all be paying a TON for stuff. BUT, we will have business brought back to the states as well.

Of course all of this seems simple on paper.

PQ, another point regarding products made in China is that it enables entrepreneurship here in America. Eight years ago I designed and patented a product, the quotes we received to create the tooling and to manufacture 5000 units here in the states averaged $2.4M. In China it cost us $270K plus $30K freight and duties. That's nearly a 10X cost differential.

There is no way I could have brought the product to market w/o Chinese suppliers, the retail price would have been too high for the market segment and I didn't have enough money to fund it. The product is now available in several high-end catalogs Sharper Image, Herrington, Hammacher, Sporty's to name a few and we have distributors in Europe, Asia and South America.

So my one little idea created jobs in China, supports the transportation industry, supports the US marketing industry, and more. Multiply that by all the other people with ideas and the passion to pursue them and you create a global economy.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by shines

PQ, another point regarding products made in China is that it enables entrepreneurship here in America. Eight years ago I designed and patented a product, the quotes we received to create the tooling and to manufacture 5000 units here in the states averaged $2.4M. In China it cost us $270K plus $30K freight and duties. That's nearly a 10X cost differential.

There is no way I could have brought the product to market w/o Chinese suppliers, the retail price would have been too high for the market segment and I didn't have enough money to fund it. The product is now available in several high-end catalogs Sharper Image, Herrington, Hammacher, Sporty's to name a few and we have distributors in Europe, Asia and South America.

So my one little idea created jobs in China, supports the transportation industry, supports the US marketing industry, and more. Multiply that by all the other people with ideas and the passion to pursue them and you create a global economy.

I'm with you. And I agree but it isn't solely the unions that has driven business away. Big part yes but in a global economy we become the top of the 'curve' due to our prosperity. We don't tax imports like we should and as long as we can get it cheaper over there then it's not gonna change. Most Americans would rather buy for the now rather than to last. Higher quality isn't always important to everyone.

EDIT: I am sooooo not qualified to talk about some of this. LOL But I know what I've seen and read.

[evan]

unions are the best and worst thing to ever happen to this country, thats just my opinion of course ;]

[PQ]

Originally Posted by evan

unions are the best and worst thing to ever happen to this country, thats just my opinion of course ;]

Best THEN worst.

If you consider the small percentage of the workforce that is union it seems that the rest of the country (non-union) is doing just fine with the current Gov. regs. So imo unions have wore out their usefulness to us.

Again, just my opinion.

Here at our business it's just me and Bonnie. We are incorporated so I have to do payroll for us as employees. And I swear if Bonnie ever votes to unionize I'll fire her ass in a heartbeat.

[Dr. Love]

Originally Posted by shines

So my younger brother calls me today to say he received a job offer as a high school mathematics teacher. He said they told him he must attend a union orientation meeting within his first two weeks on the job, he tells them he doesn't want to join the union. To which they say, it's mandatory if you want the job.

To top it off, the union dues are to be automatically withheld from his paycheck! This is for a county teaching position, which is government managed; the government can't legally fire people w/o cause and they never do anyway, so what's the point of the damn union?

Anyway, are they jerking him around or is this legit? Sounds like BS to me. I need him to get a job so he stops borrowing money from me!

The county can and will fire teachers without cause. If you are nontenured, your job is on the line every day just like everyone else's. He should be glad that he has a union that can negotiate for him. TN passed laws this year that basically stripped our teacher unions of all their powers and they can't do anything for me that I need done. They are slowly but surely taking away what few rights teachers did have. I teach all day and there are times that I would just like to go to the bathroom, but I can't due to my schedule and the liability of leaving 23 ten-year-olds unattended for even a second. If something happened while I was out, my district is not going to back me up - my union would have. I am a tenured teacher of 16 years with several degrees and an awesome track record. I could be fired at the end of the year without any "real" reason if they just felt like I was making too much money. They can hire two brand-new teachers for the price of one of me now that there is no union to stand in the way. With jobs being what they are in education, he should take the job and stop whining about Union dues.

[Wild Bill NY]

I am not going to read through all these post but I come from a union family of 60 years in NYC construction unions . I am in the strongest union in NYC and proud of it and I wouldn't live the lifestyle I live if it wasn't for unions. I won't get into what I do but I deserve every damn penny I make being that I have the most responsible job on the site and everyone's life is in my hands . The reason we have unions are for them to fight for our pay rates , bennifits , and safe working conditions . If it were up to contractors they would pay an eligal to do our work for a fraction of the pay and no bennifits so when they get hurt the rest of the working class in America can pay the hospital bill . So with all this said if the union your brother would be joining fights for his pay , bennifits and working conditions then it's worth it.

[Bonnie]

Originally Posted by PQ

Best THEN worst.

If you consider the small percentage of the workforce that is union it seems that the rest of the country (non-union) is doing just fine with the current Gov. regs. So imo unions have wore out their usefulness to us.

Again, just my opinion.

Here at our business it's just me and Bonnie. We are incorporated so I have to do payroll for us as employees. And I swear if Bonnie ever votes to unionize I'll fire her ass in a heartbeat.

[shines]

Originally Posted by Bonnie

Bonnie, when he fires you just send me a PM.