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Old 06-09-2009, 08:49 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by UCF w00t View Post
Thanks Scott for hanging through this. I know it isn't your doing nor your responsibility.

I firmly believe that soooo much of this mess could have been avoided with better information to customers. If customers are empowered with knowledge, there's much less room for dealers to lie and screw people over. For example, preorder pricing. It was never really made available. Of course it 'leaked' and was posted on here, but I don't see any reason why this couldn't be posted. I recall the excuse was that posting the whole list of MSRPs for the options would have been too confusing for consumers. But that's bogus at best.

There's a slew of examples in this but the point is that people just want information. It would have solved a lot of past issues and I'm sure it will take care of a lot of issues going forward. It does seem like more information has been coming out lately which is good to see. I hope that trend continues.

I know your and GM's experience with the preorder system and providing information earlier to customers than you normally do probably hasn't gone as well as you would've hoped but the right course of action isn't to clam up, it's more information and transparency. Of course you have to protect corporate assets and trade secret but the things we're talking about have nothing to do with that. The old ways of keeping everything super secret until the car is on the lot are gone. I hope the new GM fully realizes that and really takes the charge for better customer service more seriously. And please, don't just lean on your dealers for this. It's been shown time and time again that they cannot be relied upon. GM may not be able to sell directly to customers but they can communicate directly with customers. Help us keep the dealers honest and everyone involved will be much better off for it.

I think a lot of frustration could have been saved with just a better way to track pre-orders. Ok yeah it pissed me off the order cars are being produced as I'm sure it pissed off others, but I think a LOT would have been mitigated by having a way for customers to get SOME information on their order online using their order number instead of having to deal with dealers, who in some cases are good and some cases are worthless. I just hate having to rely on other people for something so trivial.

IMO that could have saved a lot of headaches... HOWEVER it could also generate a lot of phonecalls which I'm sure Scott will mention because when more people can easily see where their car is they will probably question it more. Its a lose-lose really....
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:12 AM   #44
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Scott's time spent on educating us and fixing problems (behind the scenes) could have been cut in half if GM had a simple requirement for dealers to disclose a few facts before taking a customers order back in September:

1. Dealer has the right to ask whatever they want for the vehicle.

2. Dealer has the right to ask for additional funds on any pre-order once the car arrives or cancel the agreement if you do not agree.

3. Pre-ordering does not mean your car will be built before the individual who orders a car in April. When you ordered has no bearing on when the car is built. When your car is built is determined by what priority your order is set at within the dealers earned allocation.

4. Individuals will be able to buy a car off a lot in April from any dealer not participating in the pre-order activity as these dealers allocations will still be included in the prioritization of builds.

5. Signing a contract and getting an production order number is no guarantee that GM will build your car. If your dealer has sold all of it's allocation before taking your order, your car will not be built until your dealer earns additional allocation.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:26 AM   #45
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3. Pre-ordering does not mean your car will be built before the individual who orders a car in April. When you ordered has no bearing on when the car is built. When your car is built is determined by what priority your order is set at within the dealers earned allocation.
Great points Hyton, #3 particularly irks me, (although does not affect me). I placed my order on 4/24/09 and am already at 3400. I know of at least one person, I'm sure there's many that ordered in November and are still at 1100!!!! For the life of me, I just don't understand this (I do understand the allocation process, I don't understand the lack of communication of the point to the loyal GM customer who pre-ordered). I am soooo glad I didn't order in Oct as I originally had planned.

EDIT: I was referring to Guthdawg when I said "ordered in November" I see now he ordered in February. (But it still sucks, he's at 1100 and I'm at 3400)
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Last edited by 67 Convertible; 06-09-2009 at 12:03 PM. Reason: mis-information
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:47 AM   #46
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67 Convertible;
Yes....I'm still at 1100. So I know first hand what you are saying ! I'm EXTREMLY fustrated at this whole process. I don't understand why I'm still at 1100. My dealership has contacted several people higher-up and he's still not getting any answers why.

I'm happy for my fellow co-owners of a beautiful car; but STILL sitting at 1100 earks me !
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:06 PM   #47
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67 Convertible;
Yes....I'm still at 1100. So I know first hand what you are saying ! I'm EXTREMLY fustrated at this whole process. I don't understand why I'm still at 1100. My dealership has contacted several people higher-up and he's still not getting any answers why.

I'm happy for my fellow co-owners of a beautiful car; but STILL sitting at 1100 earks me !
Guthdawg: You are obviously caught up in the dealership allocation dilemma. I would visit your dealer and ask if the delay is allocation, I would ask when he'll have his next allocation. If it's not within a week or so, I would cancel your order and re-order with a dealer who has allocations.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:09 PM   #48
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Yes I need to do something because an R6P order still sitting at 1100 doesn't make any since to me. None what so ever.

(ok I'm done and off my soap box. haha)
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:14 PM   #49
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Guthdawg, this is all on your dealer. He should be able to give you some time estimate as to when he'll receive allocation. How many of they gotten so far each month? How many people are ahead of you? As of last week, 1/3rd of all preorders were still at 1100 so you're not alone.
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:54 PM   #50
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Hylton, I like you and respect your opinion but I had to respond to this, please don't take it personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hylton View Post
Scott's time spent on educating us and fixing problems (behind the scenes) could have been cut in half if GM had a simple requirement for dealers to disclose a few facts before taking a customers order back in September:

1. Dealer has the right to ask whatever they want for the vehicle.
Come on.... If that wasn't completely obvious, they really don't need to say that. Hot cars have been marked up since the dawn of time, this is nothing new and nothing that is any responsibility of GM. Heck all kinds of products get marked up, and cars are no different.

Quote:

2. Dealer has the right to ask for additional funds on any pre-order once the car arrives or cancel the agreement if you do not agree.
Again, GM has no responsibility for this. GM is basically selling cars to dealers for them to sell (its not that simple but in the raw basics of it thats what it is). They cannot dictate the dealers business practices, theres no way they should be saying something like this.


Quote:
3. Pre-ordering does not mean your car will be built before the individual who orders a car in April. When you ordered has no bearing on when the car is built. When your car is built is determined by what priority your order is set at within the dealers earned allocation.
I agree. Scott DID say this to us multiple times however this was not clearly communicated with the public. The public percieves - I am preordering so I am first, and technically you are.... but only at that dealer. I don't know that people outside of us have nessicarily been freaking out, as there are so few cars around that most could assume that others they see on the road just pre-ordered before them. Still it would have been nice to know, officially.

Quote:

4. Individuals will be able to buy a car off a lot in April from any dealer not participating in the pre-order activity as these dealers allocations will still be included in the prioritization of builds.
This goes along with #3, its a little ridiculous, but as I said in my prior reply, the dealers whine just as much as we do that they want cars, except their motivation is to sell them, and they have more rights with GM than the customer. As well the guys who avoided the pre-order system are looking to get as much as they can for the car.

Quote:
5. Signing a contract and getting an production order number is no guarantee that GM will build your car. If your dealer has sold all of it's allocation before taking your order, your car will not be built until your dealer earns additional allocation.
This should have been clearer as well, but again, the responsibility of the dealers to advise customers of. Thats what dealers are for.

Its unfortunate that GM cannot penalize dealers more for shady or crappy business practices. GM is caught in a tough spot beciause they want as many pre-orders as possible, and they don't want people to say "eh i wont bother I'll just get one off the lot".

In the end though GM in offering preorders has a responsibility to the dealers to get bodies into showrooms. They are also very limited in how they can discuss business procedures, in the end its not their call (aside from some parts).

Preordering works the same way with any consumer product. Its just that cars are large and expensive enough and take long enough to produce that the issues are very pronounced. For example I work for Canon and if a hot new camera is coming out Best Buy or places like that can offer pre-orders of them. They may only get 20 cameras in their first shipment to a store which could all be pre-ordered and sold, or not, but another store can say sorry we don't do that and just sell them off the floor. SO if youre the 21st pre-order at store A and they sold their 20 youre SOL till they get more. Its the same way with this car, but the difference is Best Buy will likely get 20 more cameras tomorrow, Cars just arent so simple, but thats how it works fo consumer products.

I don't like it either, but in the end as pissed as I was at waiting, my only true complaint was that you can't get any tracking info easily. That is where GM really dropped the ball, and had a good opportunity for some good faith with the customer.
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Old 06-09-2009, 02:10 PM   #51
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Rogue -

All is good and your points are well taken. Yes some things are obvious but many are first time buyers and don't know squat. In Canada, we have mixed laws where some provinces can ask more than MSRP and others can't. My points were generally speaking about educating the consumer (communication) rather than doing anything about the issues.
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Old 06-09-2009, 02:13 PM   #52
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Rogue -

All is good and your points are well taken. Yes some things are obvious but many are first time buyers and don't know squat. In Canada, we have mixed laws where some provinces can ask more than MSRP and others can't. My points were generally speaking about educating the consumer (communication) rather than doing anything about the issues.
Yes I definitely agree, consumers needed to receive just a bit more information, in the end this is a $25k+ car not a camera or an ipod we are dealing with here. It would have went a long way in slowing or stopping complaints.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:35 PM   #53
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So I should check with my local dealer and see if they have any allocations left for the Camaro before I order. If not, I should go down the road to the next one and check with them? The way I'm reading about the dealership allocations is, that if they have got their share it may be a while before they get more even if they special order them?

I ask because I never ordered a new car, I have always bought straight off the lot.
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Old 06-10-2009, 04:16 AM   #54
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So I should check with my local dealer and see if they have any allocations left for the Camaro before I order. If not, I should go down the road to the next one and check with them? The way I'm reading about the dealership allocations is, that if they have got their share it may be a while before they get more even if they special order them?

I ask because I never ordered a new car, I have always bought straight off the lot.
Yes. The dealer with allocation will receive the car before the dealer who has no allocation left.
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Old 06-10-2009, 06:10 AM   #55
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I have two questions: Two dealers called me yesterday. I can finally order my Summit white Camaro today from a dealer who does not have an allocation at this time. He tells me has no customers ahead of me if I order today (his only 3 orders/allocations were just accepted by G.M.). He wants $1000.000 deposit. Another dealer called and advised they have one open allocation (no customer) but they want $2500.00 deposit. Both these dealers claim they are safe from closing. My two questions are: Which dealer do you think will get me my car the fastest, and is there any way to confirm if a dealer is or is not closing ? $1,000.00 I can live with but $2500.00 is a lot of money to possibly lose. Any thoughts ?
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Old 06-10-2009, 06:31 AM   #56
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I have two questions: Two dealers called me yesterday. I can finally order my Summit white Camaro today from a dealer who does not have an allocation at this time. He tells me has no customers ahead of me if I order today (his only 3 orders/allocations were just accepted by G.M.). He wants $1000.000 deposit. Another dealer called and advised they have one open allocation (no customer) but they want $2500.00 deposit. Both these dealers claim they are safe from closing. My two questions are: Which dealer do you think will get me my car the fastest, and is there any way to confirm if a dealer is or is not closing ? $1,000.00 I can live with but $2500.00 is a lot of money to possibly lose. Any thoughts ?
No question - go with the guy who has allocation. No dealer will be closing before all the initial allocated vehicles are built (unless they do it on their own free will). I expect GM to complete all the initial allocations by the end of this month so if you go with the guy who has allocation, you should get your car in July sometime.
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