Rumor: SAE testing complete, numbers "north of 570 HP"

[blufin]

Sounds like the author needs to go to a driving school.

[Shurenuff]

I love Jeremy Clarkson. I also hate Jeremy Clarkson.

[Chemical]

Originally Posted by flopjack

I say somewhere between 550 and 600. I know that's a very general range, but the reason I say that is because that is the range that all the really great cars are in, and I believe that the ZL1 will be considered a generation from now as a truly great car. Any more power for a production car and its just a death trap that drives the driver...consider the article by Jeremy Clarkson:

Clarkson rails against the horsepower race

As we know, the Ferrari 250 GTO is widely regarded to be the best, most important Ferrari ever. Unfortunately, I cannot verify this, because the BBC is not rich enough to pay the insurance premium should I ever get behind the wheel. But I do know one thing. It produces just 295bhp.

So, let's just get this straight. The best car ever made in the whole of the history of the world produces fewer horsepower - a lot fewer - than a hot Ford Focus.

In the desert playground of Qatar, this, of course, is a ridiculous notion. The best car, there, is the car with the most horsepower. Horsepower is everything. Horsepower is the mechanical embodiment of your scrotum. He who has the most is the best and the strongest and the most handsome.

In the old days, it was top speed that counted - specifically, how high the numbers went on your car's speedometer. My Dad's Ford read to 120mph, so he had a bigger penis than John Forrester's dad, whose Sunbeam speedo only read to 90. In my 11-year-old head, this was a fact.

But it costs carmakers a lot of money to buy components that can handle truly high speeds, so most these days are limited to 155mph. This means everyone's genitals are the same. And it's the same story with acceleration. I remember genuinely believing that I was better than my mate because my Scirocco did 0-60 in 7.9 seconds and his Chevette HS took 8.3. Now, though, cars get to 60mph in the time nature's little foibles will let them. Nought-to-60 is no longer even remotely relevant in the schoolyard. Or the pub. Or even in Qatar. Nope. It's horsepower.

“The EU may be pointing at polar bears and holes in the ozone layer, but engineers know that new cars have to produce more power”
The car companies know this, which is why there's an inexorable quest to find more. The EU may be jumping up and down and pointing at polar bears and holes in the ozone layer, but while engineers know their next engine must produce nothing but daffodils, they also know that if it doesn't produce more power than the last one - which belched out a cocktail of coal and acid - they will be finished.

What's more, it must produce more than the equivalent Audi, which must produce more than the equivalent Mercedes which must produce more than the equivalent BMW and so on. However, we are now fast approaching the time when the silliness must stop.

I first noticed the problem when driving a Brabus-tuned Mercedes SL a couple of years ago. It produced 730bhp and nearly a thousand torques. These are the sort of figures that can cause a tent pole in your dish dash. But sadly, they cause even bigger issues on the road. The car was nigh-on undrivable.

Initially, I thought that maybe Brabus had had a bad day, and that it simply wasn't thought out properly, but later I tried the 660bhp AMG-tuned SL Black. And that was just as bad. It was like driving a turbocharged whale.

It rolled about when you asked it to go round a corner, and any attempt to balance the car with some throttle was futile. It was like trying to balance a screaming baby on a baseball bat.

Maybe, I thought, the chassis of the SL is simply not capable of dealing with such big numbers. It was a plausible thought. It's acar for dentists in Houston, and not steely-stomached young racers such as myself.

However, more recently, I tried the Ferrari 599 GTO, which also produces 660bhp, and that didn't work either. And the 599's chassis was most definitely not designed with Texan mouth-men in mind. It was designed, as we know, for the owners of carpet warehouses in the North so that they could pretend they were Michael Schumacher.

Well, I'll tell you what. If it even looks like rain and you pretend to be Michael Schumacher in a 599 GTO, you will end up in a tree.

Big horsepower numbers may sound enticing, but, on the road, you need some rubber in the bushes and some give in the suspension. Plus, you need tyres that won't wear out after 15 miles and steering that doesn't go from lock-to-lock in half-a-turn. And these things just fall to pieces when you introduce them to 660bhp.

Yes, I know the Bugatti Veyron works on the road, and it has a thousand horsepower. But that's why it costs a million quid. And that's how much you have to spend if you want to play high stakes in the numbers game. If you want to spend less than a million on a car, then I reckon the realistic top whack is around 600 horsepower. Plainly McLaren thinks so too, which is why their new car sits just under this magic number. So does the 458. So do all the really great cars.

So now we are in a tricky spot, because BMW and Audi and Mercedes are all selling cars that develop 500bhp. And if they continue to compete, they'll be above the 600 mark soon. And then what? Every estate agent and banker in the land will be smeared up a lamp-post.

The Germans are obviously aware of this, which is why I see they are now competing to see who can fit the most powerful stereo. Though last time I looked, it was Jag in the lead with 1,200 watts. That's enough to take your whole head off.

But we're not really interested in how loudly we can play Jeremy Vine while driving to a lunch appointment. They may as well compete by saying: "We have more gears than they do." Oh, I forgot. Lexus is already doing that.

However, we do need something to replace horsepower in our imagination, because cars with more than 600 horsepower are dangerous. And, if they're limited to 155mph anyway, completely pointless.

Decibels? I think not. We'll leave that to the homotorcyclists. Lightness? Boring. And anyway, you eventually end up back in a Citroen AX. Emissions? Oh, give me a break. You really think normal people are going to run about saying: "My dad's car produces less carbon dioxide than your dad's car".

No. I think I have it though. Price. Yes. Let's stop telling the carmakers we want more power. We have enough already. Instead, let's tell them we want to pay less money. Because, let's not forget, when it was new, the 250 GTO cost £6,000.

Shake your di**s, this pissing contest is over!

Great read!

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm sorry, did sshooch just say there is an SAE procedure for measuring c***s?

Actually - I editted it that way. The way he left it probably should've been a warning, lol...

I think there is an ASTM standard for what he is saying, though. I believe it is D 69

Maybe I deserve a warning for that suggestive comment...

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

I love Jeremy Clarkson. I also hate Jeremy Clarkson.

He seems to forget his opinion is not fact... LOL. I LOVE JC; he can be transparent to me at times, though. When he's not, he's probably my favorite personality.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm sorry, did sshooch just say there is an SAE procedure for measuring c***s?

I guess Big Brother really is watching!

[Scarrzz]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm sorry, did sshooch just say there is an SAE procedure for measuring c***s?

. *reaches for slide rule*


That was an interesting read, flopjack.

The rest of this post is filled with the inane ramblings of my imagination. I apologize now, but once I started down the road, I didn't feel like turning around. Take it with a grain of salt, and possibly two asprin. Might prefer to skip it if you don't like math.

In honesty, flopjack's post got me to wondering what the formula for "performance" should be.

How about {2 x [3 x (10 x Wheel Torque/Weight)+ (coefficient of aerodynamic drag / 0.33)]} x skidpad # = Awesome Factor ?

That would make the torque to weight ratio three times more important than the drag, and modify the result by the skidpad Gs.

assume 500 torque and 4000 pounds with a drag of .33 and a skidpad # of 1.00 and you'd get {2x[(3x1.25)+1]} x 1= 9.5

This is way too simplistic to be valid, but already too complicated to sell cars - even though it would yield a number between six and ten for pretty much any car I think. Only those with skidpad numbers north of 1.0 would crack into the 10+ range.

Anybody else have a thought on the relative merits of different aspects of "performance?"

Edit: need to throw in a variable for efficiency at converting that power into speed,
perhaps 1/4 mile times & 1/4 mile top speed.

While you think on all that, I'm going to get some drugs. (aleve)

.

[2cnd chance]

^^^^It's personal preference at that point isn't it???^^^^

[Scarrzz]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

^^^^It's personal preference at that point isn't it???^^^^

.

Whether to use a slide rule? - Yes.


.

[Paul Huizenga]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

Based on what was stated by the author in the article the conclusion was that some changes to the induction system hardware could increase horsepower. The LSA being underpowered by design, has available room for growth, but not alot. The theoreticaly "improved" LSA could be produced at a higher HP than the LS7 but that would not be feasible because it's not "hardened" like it's hand built brothers. Those HP levels would take it beyond the fail safe limit. The balanced and blue printed Wixom LS's are similar in a way to the LSA in that they can handle much more load and power. But, where are we going to draw the line with HP and $$$? I think we have just about reached the apogee on that trajectory. Yes, the Camaro VS Corvette argument isn't really viable in favor of the Camaro, in any factory platform head to head or even with a slight HP advantage...ever..., due to power to weight ratio issues, physical design characterictics, etc..but we love to bench race and make fascinating argument over that one! I may be wrong but I don't expect to see any real major hardware changes for the ZL1, such as a new or improved intercooler, intake manifold, or camshaft swap. It's probably going to come down to a few improvements in smoothing out and increasing the airflow getting in and out giving a net gain of 20-30 HP tops. Throttle body, plumbing, airbox, pulley, exhaust from manifold to tailpipe? All the usual suspects. 580 HP, thats only 24 over 556. Yes comrade, agreed, it's nice to have wishful thinking! And my wishful thinking is a bit higher than 580. Only the Shaddow knows for sure....


Good points Orbit, as you stated if the information is credible from the article. I would wager end of August more hard info should come out. They said around the end of summer as I recall from a previous press release.


Good point as well Radz, as looked at from the opposite side of the coin! I like the cloak and dagger theory! My expections are in line with your estimations however.

Interesting thought... the next time I talk to our sources, I'll be sure to ask if the ZL1 powerplant will be assembled at the Performance Build Center like the LS7 and LS9. Oh, and hopefully get the exact horsepower number instead of just being told that my personal guess of 570 is low ;-)

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Scarrzz

.

Whether to use a slide rule? - Yes.


.

Uhhhh OK. Help, Where's that Z28 section?

[scritchy]

Originally Posted by mr02Z/28

LoL... If you really think Chevy dealers are gonna sell the ZL1 at MSRP, I'd like to see that.. I will bet 99% of the ZL1s will have an overabundance of "options" thrown in just to skyrocket the price... Plus the GT500 has 540hp, the 2012 ZL1 now has "north of 570", you know darn well that GM will cash in on a High MSRP due to the fact that Chevy can claim it has a significant HP increase over Ford.. I really doubt the Camaro ZL1 is going to start as low as in the upper $40k range.. If it does, i may jump in line to buy one..

Why would you buy a car that isn't what you want in terms of options? If they don't have what you are looking for on the lot, order it. It takes longer, but is exactly what you want, without any of those 'options' thrown in to skyrocket the price.

And paying MSRP (or over) is just foolish anymore. It is easy to get around that (depending on where you live, I guess).

[Scarrzz]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Uhhhh OK. Help, Where's that Z28 section?

It's still on the "Most Wanted" wall. Someone probably pinned a ZL1 poster on top. It wasn't me, really. No, Really!

.

[mr02Z/28]

LoL... Ok, paying over MSRP is foolish, i agree but GM/Chevy knows that they have a Big seller in the ZL1 and if you do buy a ZL1 yourself, I would love to see what your monthly payments are gonna be and how much Cash you actually dropped down on this car... Also, if you do purchase a 2012 ZL1, I would actually Love to see how much Under MSRP the dealer will actually sell the ZL1 for.... If you happen to purchase a 2012 Camaro ZL1, please let me know what they sold it to you for, I would Love to see it.. I would love to see the Final price is what I am saying..


Considering the ZL1 is going to be a Hot ticket, they will probably sell All Over MSRP, when I bought my 2011 1SS, 6 Chevy dealers i went to were not going to budge on price when selling the Camaro SS, all were not negotiating on price, the 3.6L Camaros were a different story, they had alot of dealer rebates/discounts.. I am guessing that the ZL1 will not receive any dealer discounts or rebates.. It's a hot item.. They probably don't feel the need to discount any SS Camaros since, I think 70%-80% of Camaro sales are the SS variety.... Depending on final specs of this ZL1, I may consider selling my 1968 Chevelle Convertible..

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm sorry, did sshooch just say there is an SAE procedure for measuring c***s?

LOL Number 3...I heard rumor that it has something to do with distance and quarters....LOL...
couldn't resist...Scarrzz made me do it...telepathically...