what order

[BIG NASST]

Ive had my car almost 2 years about 1500 miles stored winters.Is it possible it could use a claying?Does claying remove any finish?Is it necessary to wax or polish or both and in what order?The more i wax or polish will the luster or shine get deeper or is there a to much?

[GVA 45TH 2SS]

In a nut shell.
Clay removes surface contamination (stuff embedded in the paint)
claying will remove your wax.
polishing will give you the shine and luster.
wax will protect the finish.
plenty of people just was and wax. but if you want the deep wet looking paint you will have to polish the paint.

wash
clay
polish
seal
wax
would be the basic order.
There are plenty of threads on the how to in here to help you out.

[BIG NASST]

Thank you

[ihaveacamaro]

Originally Posted by GVA 45TH 2SS

In a nut shell.
Clay removes surface contamination (stuff embedded in the paint)
claying will remove your wax. It does not actually. i thought the same until I did my own tests to prove otherwise. Folk have been saying the same things for years without anyone truly and publicly testing the assumptions. In my testing, claying did not remove wax or sealant. My hypothesis is that it glides over the wax or sealant, but I have no way of knowing apart from the fact that it doesn't remove
polishing will give you the shine and luster.
wax will protect the finish.
plenty of people just was and wax. but if you want the deep wet looking paint you will have to polish the paint.

wash
clay
polish
seal
wax
would be the basic order.
There are plenty of threads on the how to in here to help you out.

Not trying to rag on you, but I'm trying to slowly stop the perpetuation of wrong information that I too have said and spread.

Everything else is as solid as advice as anyone can give.

[GVA 45TH 2SS]

Originally Posted by ihaveacamaro

Not trying to rag on you, but I'm trying to slowly stop the perpetuation of wrong information that I too have said and spread.

ah no problem.. I always strip wash with Dawn before I clay anyway, And all I had ever heard was clay removes wax. Im always learning something new here

[jrisebo]

If I am going to clay, I always wash with a heavy concentration of Dawn dish soap. Its my understanding that this does remove all the wax.

[ihaveacamaro]

Originally Posted by jrisebo

If I am going to clay, I always wash with a heavy concentration of Dawn dish soap. Its my understanding that this does remove all the wax.

It's not going to harm the car, but nor will it remove the wax in my testing. The surfactants that are in dawn make so the water sheets as if nothing is there. This sheeting action is what allows your dishes to be dried without water spots.

If you take 10% IPA and remove the surfactants, beading returns.


What all this means to me is that if you are claying or polishing don't add in a different soap or a different method to "remove" the wax. Just keep it simple and as long as everything is clean one way or another, you can clay, polish, wax etc.

[GVA 45TH 2SS]

You're killing me Roshan!
LOL

[ihaveacamaro]

Originally Posted by GVA 45TH 2SS

You're killing me Roshan!
LOL

Lmao!

Yeah.... I'm really fun at parties

[Adam's Polishes]

Originally Posted by BIG NASST

Ive had my car almost 2 years about 1500 miles stored winters.Is it possible it could use a claying?Does claying remove any finish?

Claying is a non-abrasive process, so it won't remove any finish, though it wouldn't be uncommon for it to introduce a small amount of surface marring.

Originally Posted by BIG NASST

Is it necessary to wax or polish or both and in what order?

All processes in detailing are "AS NEEDED".
If its dirty, wash it.
If its rough, clay it.
If its swirled/scratched, polish it.
If it needs protection, wax/seal it.

In terms of order "polish" is always going to come before wax. Polishes are what correct the imperfections in your paints surface, but don't do anything for protection. Once you have the paint looking the way you want then you'll apply your preferred wax or sealant to provide a sacrificial barrier between your paint and the elements.

Originally Posted by BIG NASST

The more i wax or polish will the luster or shine get deeper or is there a to much?

There is a diminishing point of return with any product/process where too much becomes a negative. Certainly you can polish your car to the point of perfection, then the argument can even be made that a professional can jewel the finish to an even higher gloss using the right combination of product and technique. When it comes to protection though - most products have a limit to how much they'll "stack" most waxes and sealants max out around 2-3 coats (or less) and any additional coats have no benefit.

In some cases you can even over apply a wax, to the point that the finish will begin to look cloudy or murky from the buildup.

Originally Posted by ihaveacamaro

It's not going to harm the car, but nor will it remove the wax in my testing. The surfactants that are in dawn make so the water sheets as if nothing is there. This sheeting action is what allows your dishes to be dried without water spots.

If you take 10% IPA and remove the surfactants, beading returns.


What all this means to me is that if you are claying or polishing don't add in a different soap or a different method to "remove" the wax. Just keep it simple and as long as everything is clean one way or another, you can clay, polish, wax etc.

Dawn sports a pH of 9 and not to open up a debate Roshan, that is enough to remove weaker waxes or at the very least have a detrimental effect on their longevity. I'm currently working on a heavy duty soap for a private label customer that needs it to remove a film that builds up on his fleet due to where they are used - we've been able to show both in practical application as well as lab tests that a pH of 11 will remove most any traditional wax or sealant plus the film byproduct we're up against.

Its safe to say Dawn may not be the most effective means of stripping wax, but it does have an effect.

As far as the clay not removing it, the effect you are most likely seeing is the lubrication. Most any lube (detail spray, dedicated clay lube, etc) will contain a percentage of wax, much like a rinseless product will... this wax has a residual effect on water surface tension, so you can't necessarily say a claying won't remove wax based on water behavior after the fact. That may simply be a result of the lubrication that was used. Again, here clay wouldn't be the be all end all for wax removal, but it does have an impact on the LSP.

In terms of why stripping previously applied protection is helpful - foam pads especially are susceptible to change in performance when the pores in the foam become clogged. As polishing most definitely abrades the LSP's from the surface they are generally picked up by the pad. This can reduce the ability of the pad to 'cut' as well as provide unwanted lubrication to the compound.

It usually won't present itself in the first few panels, but a car with lots of wax on it will start to cause issues in the correction when you get a ways into it. Excessive cast off, reduced polish performance, pilling or balling on the surface all are the results of a pad gummed up with wax.

[ihaveacamaro]

Originally Posted by Adam's Polishes

Dawn sports a pH of 9 and not to open up a debate Roshan, that is enough to remove weaker waxes or at the very least have a detrimental effect on their longevity. I'm currently working on a heavy duty soap for a private label customer that needs it to remove a film that builds up on his fleet due to where they are used - we've been able to show both in practical application as well as lab tests that a pH of 11 will remove most any traditional wax or sealant plus the film byproduct we're up against.

But OP and others and I are talking removing, not lessening. As far as that soap you mention, I'd be interesting in doing tests on that. In my own testing, even CG's Citrus Wash N Gloss at the strip dilution will lessen, but will leave wax/sealant on the surface.

Now to say how I tested, what I did was have a panel divided in 3. Both sides are waxed, while the middle has treatment with a pre-wax cleanser meant for coatings, followed by 10% IPA wipe so I know that there is nothing left behind.

I will then use the stripping agent on one side with wax and after washing it off, use 10% IPA to remove any surfactants or leftover chemical.

Then comparing the beading and sheeting the side that had the stripping agent was not as good at beading and sheeting as the waxed untouched side, but still better than the clean with nothing on it portion. This tells me something is still on there.

The least abrasive thing that has conclusively left it wax free was when I used a paint cleaner with a buffer.

Its safe to say Dawn may not be the most effective means of stripping wax, but it does have an effect.

Not arguing that, but it doesn't necessarily remove. And that is what my point is.

As far as the clay not removing it, the effect you are most likely seeing is the lubrication. Most any lube (detail spray, dedicated clay lube, etc) will contain a percentage of wax, much like a rinseless product will... this wax has a residual effect on water surface tension, so you can't necessarily say a claying won't remove wax based on water behavior after the fact. That may simply be a result of the lubrication that was used. Again, here clay wouldn't be the be all end all for wax removal, but it does have an impact on the LSP.

Same test above, but with claying, not a stripping agent. The results were the same. And I get where you're coming from, it does lessen, but my testing showed to me at least that it does not completely remove.

In terms of why stripping previously applied protection is helpful - foam pads especially are susceptible to change in performance when the pores in the foam become clogged. As polishing most definitely abrades the LSP's from the surface they are generally picked up by the pad. This can reduce the ability of the pad to 'cut' as well as provide unwanted lubrication to the compound.

Honestly, the wax or sealant layer is so thin, that I imagine the abraded paint is more a factor in clogging the pores. In my experience, I remove about 2-4 uM of clear coat when I am compounding and polishing with a DA. I don't think the layer of wax is anywhere near to that thick, and when I tested waxing and sealing with a PTG before and after, I got no difference in the readings. In any case, no one is saying to only use one or two pads, so this should be a non-issue.

It usually won't present itself in the first few panels, but a car with lots of wax on it will start to cause issues in the correction when you get a ways into it. Excessive cast off, reduced polish performance, pilling or balling on the surface all are the results of a pad gummed up with wax.

How can you say definitely that it is the wax that is causing that and not the abraded paint? Either way, gumming up over time is a given because of the abraded paint, regardless if there is wax or not, and should be a non-issue if you have 3-4 pads of each color. Just switch to a fresh pad.