[BooSSted]

I don't get where you can say this car will be the slowest of the 3? The GT350 and current Hellcat are NOT flat out faster in a straight line. The LT4, as stated is a proven platform and the A10 has shown its potential and is the' best auto trans available.
I am curious to see how the TQ management is addressed because totally disabling it on some Z06 procharged and nitrous builds didn't fare well with not so desired results happening to the trans. But the TQM wouldn't allow the trans to shift, but that nut has been cracked it seems. As will this current 'issue'... The new ZL1 is legit, only thing holding this platform back will be the fueling aftermarket options.

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by BooSSted

I don't get where you can say this car will be the slowest of the 3? The GT350 and current Hellcat are NOT flat out faster in a straight line. The LT4, as stated is a proven platform and the A10 has shown its potential and is the' best auto trans available.
I am curious to see how the TQ management is addressed because totally disabling it on some Z06 procharged and nitrous builds didn't fare well with not so desired results happening to the trans. But the TQM wouldn't allow the trans to shift, but that nut has been cracked it seems. As will this current 'issue'... The new ZL1 is legit, only thing holding this platform back will be the fueling aftermarket options.

Yes, now granted I'm only talking about straight-line performance, but that's for a reason, most people don't track their cars and even less of those actually have the skill to do anything impressive with a sub 8 minute Nurburgring car. 9 times out of 10 if you have a buddy/enemy that wants to race, you're 3 honking it on the highway.

Early 2000s you have the 2002 Camaro and the Terminator, game over Ford wins. Camaro slowest.
2012-2015: You have the ZL1 (580 HP @ 4150 lbs) and the GT500 (550 HP @ 3850) and the GT500 with 662HP @ 3880 lbs. And the Hellcat with 707 @ 4400. ZL1 the slowest.
Now: ZL1 with 650 HP @ 3950 lbs. PREVIOUS GEN Hellcat still faster in a straight line, PREVIOUS GEN GT500 is just as fast in a straight line (Manual for manual). What's going to happen when Dodges releases the new Hellcat? Ford the new GT500?

Exactly.

Let's also not forget that Hellcats are E85/Pulley/Tune away from 900 WHP and mid 9s. And let's not forget that GT500s are the same way. And here we are with our cute little 1.7L blowers that are almost maxed supercharger RPM wise from the box. A cam/E85 can only add so much. A maxed out LT4 (Heads/Cam/E85/Pulleys/Exhaust/Intake/Meth/TB/Porting) makes at or less than 800 WHP. Hell the LS9 would at least do 850 WHP or more with the much larger blower. Whereas pulleyed GT500s and Hellcats can achieve that number and more without even opening the engine. Our only way compete is to do what GM should have done from the get go and that is put an actual blower on top of the engine that can crank out some real numbers.

GM has half assed their performance cars for the last few years. And don't flame me just look at history. Don't get me wrong, all the cars are good, out of the box, they're nice reliable packages. The Z06/ZR1/ZL1/CTS-V are all great cars. But once you compare them to the competition you realize they're nothing special, and let's face it only the latest gen of Camaros have stepped into something useable on a track (Save for the 5th Z28).

[Mr. Meh]

Too much narrow focus in one little area. That's not the point or the focus of the ZL1. People like to go on and on about 1/4mi and ignore everything else. ZL1s do a lot more than just stab and steer from a dig.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by big dave

Like I said , I've seen a stock Z06 pull 1.5? 60', my buddy has one too so I know it can be done. That sure doesn't sound very restricted to me.

I never said that the Z06 couldn't do better than a 1.65 60', just that the Z06s are limited just like the ZL1s are and I gave an example of what mine did with our crappy air (4400 ft DA) and crappy gas. The Z06 SHOULD get a better 60' than the ZL1 seeing as how it's 400-500 lbs lighter with all conditions being equal.

I've been tuning GMs since 2002 for both local and national companies and throughout the various generations I've seen up front and first hand the different types of torque management over the years. The E92 ECM which has been in use since 2014 for the C7s/trucks and now the Gen6 Camaros and it has various types of torque management. Here is a screen shot of a datalog of a Z06 at the track with torque management left alone. Pay close attention to the TPS or throttle position percentage, it doesn't even give 100% throttle until ~5000 rpms in 1st gear, and it's not because it wasn't floored from the very beginning either.


Yeah, I would call not even opening the throttle all the way in 1st gear until 5000 rpms pretty damn restricted. Just by getting rid of that the car went from a 1.65 60' down to a 1.45 60' in 4400 ft DA.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by IneedAZ

Back to what I said.. I said KR or low timing tables can make the car feel like it is being held back of its full potential. I didn't say it was the same thing. Others assume it is tq management and I am offering an alternative to what they are feeling.

But it is torque management causing it regardless if it's running more on the low octane timing tables and pinging or not. Obviously running better gas will keep it away from detonation, but it's not going to fix the root cause of the softer launch due to torque management.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by BooSSted

I am curious to see how the TQ management is addressed because totally disabling it on some Z06 procharged and nitrous builds didn't fare well with not so desired results happening to the trans. But the TQM wouldn't allow the trans to shift, but that nut has been cracked it seems.

There are different types of torque management in the computers. The one thing you don't do is get rid of it in the TCM, but it's fair game in the ECM.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Mr. Meh

Too much narrow focus in one little area. That's not the point or the focus of the ZL1. People like to go on and on about 1/4mi and ignore everything else. ZL1s do a lot more than just stab and steer from a dig.

Have you ever driven a quick straight line car? The 1/4 mile performance is 33 1/3rd percent of the "triple threat". I don't think Dodge ever claimed anything more than a 707hp car. Until now of course. Going in circles gets you nowhere.

[hotlap]

This post from a Hellcat owner trading for a ZL1 explains well why straight line isn't the only factor...in the real world. In the ZL1, we are talking about a low 11s car that handles like a go-cart. Fun, fun, fun

Originally Posted by jimbo11

Why the change? The Hellcat is my garage queen and my daily driver was a 4runner. Recently I traded in the 4runner and picked up a 17 mustang GT for my daily driver. Cant believe this happened, but the mustang is more fun to drive than the Hellcat. The HC power is incredible, but I love the smaller more nimble feeling of the Mustang. So, was thinking get the best of both worlds, the power of the HC and the handling (even better than the GT).....all in the Zl1.

[IneedAZ]

Originally Posted by NicD

The one thing you don't do is get rid of it in the TCM, but it's fair game in the ECM.

Sorry, cant entirely buy this statement.. I have seen it helpful to go to -1 in the Trans TQ Adder modifier table. I have dropped time in my 2012 in doing so. I know its 2 different cars and engines.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by IneedAZ

Sorry, cant entirely buy this statement.. I have seen it helpful to go to -1 in the Trans TQ Adder modifier table. I have dropped time in my 2012 in doing so. I know its 2 different cars and engines.

LOL I don't even know how to respond to this but give me a minute to regain my composure...

My response was to a guy who was talking about how disabling it on the new Z06 generally destroys transmissions, referring to the A8 which operates much like the A10s in the 17 ZL1. It has nothing to do with the old 6L80s/6L90s but since you mentioned it, totally disabling that on those transmissions will generally shorten the life of them as well and since they don't fuel/spark cut on the shifts it's completely different and totally irrelevant to the A8 in the Z06s/Camaros and the A10 in the ZL1.

[IneedAZ]

Originally Posted by NicD

LOL I don't even know how to respond to this but give me a minute to regain my composure...

My response was to a guy who was talking about how disabling it on the new Z06 generally destroys transmissions, referring to the A8 which operates much like the A10s in the 17 ZL1. It has nothing to do with the old 6L80s/6L90s but since you mentioned it, totally disabling that on those transmissions will generally shorten the life of them as well and since they don't fuel/spark cut on the shifts it's completely different and totally irrelevant to the A8 in the Z06s/Camaros and the A10 in the ZL1.

I did say they were different
By the way, my trans has 105k miles on it now

[big dave]

Originally Posted by NicD

I never said that the Z06 couldn't do better than a 1.65 60', just that the Z06s are limited just like the ZL1s are and I gave an example of what mine did with our crappy air (4400 ft DA) and crappy gas. The Z06 SHOULD get a better 60' than the ZL1 seeing as how it's 400-500 lbs lighter with all conditions being equal.

I've been tuning GMs since 2002 for both local and national companies and throughout the various generations I've seen up front and first hand the different types of torque management over the years. The E92 ECM which has been in use since 2014 for the C7s/trucks and now the Gen6 Camaros and it has various types of torque management. Here is a screen shot of a datalog of a Z06 at the track with torque management left alone. Pay close attention to the TPS or throttle position percentage, it doesn't even give 100% throttle until ~5000 rpms in 1st gear, and it's not because it wasn't floored from the very beginning either.


Yeah, I would call not even opening the throttle all the way in 1st gear until 5000 rpms pretty damn restricted. Just by getting rid of that the car went from a 1.65 60' down to a 1.45 60' in 4400 ft DA.

That's a good bit of info. Even more impressive that you can get that kind of 60' in such terrible da . So even with everything turned off it still intervenes? That sucks!

[Ian SS]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

I don't understand that line of thinking. Why would you not include the C7 "by design"? And how is the ZL1 more of a "capable domestic track car" than, say, a GT350R or track pack, on the track?

Because the 10 speed ZL1 was faster on the 'ring vs the GT350R.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by Ian SS

Because the 10 speed ZL1 was faster on the 'ring vs the GT350R.

HAHAHA there is absolutely no way of knowing that! There is absolutely no way to back up that claim, where do you get this from??

Even if the ZL1 were faster (which is 100% impossible to verify), that does not mean the GT350R is less track capable. It handles the track just fine without a hiccup, it just may not do it as quickly. It does not overheat or wear out its brakes or other components = track capable.