[Doc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ok, this is getting very "wishful".

Why yes, yes it is

1st, as usual, you guys are setting an very unrealistic price target.

I've tried to tell you that a 200 HP Sonic WILL cost $22,500 to $24,000. A Fiests ST with 130 HP will run you $21,000 base. So $22,500 would be pretty solid.

Do you know if FWD is in fact cheaper to make than RWD? I'm not sure why Mazda, Honda, etc. are able to make cars in the $16k-18k range? What allows them to undercut us so much? Maybe we could go with a FWD but I don't know if people would accept that in a pony car that looks like it has a RWD.

I've tried to tell you that a 270 HP Cruze (Sedan only at this time) would run you $24,000 or more. Very competitive with the Focus ST which is also $24,000. But you'll have none of that.

I've heard you; it's just that I don't think what I'm proposing needs a 270hp engine. And I'm not advocating a competitor to the Ford Focus.

What you want is still a unique car with allllll new sheetmetal and allllll new interior that is sporty and exciting yet somehow below $20,000.

Well yes, yes I do; $50 below to be exact.

Then you pile on with wagons and ute body styles that would sell at ridiculously low volumes. Wagons don't sell and there is really a pretty good reason the G8 Ute never made it.

Oh that's just randomly interesting side stuff for the sake of discussion. All of that would be based on the idea of a new platform, with each of those ideas using the same chassis, suspension and everything from the front seats forward; only the back changes. It is indeed just wishful thinking.

You cannot have a low volume, unique car with great "fun to drive" quotient for under $20,000.

Well you're the engineer with the experience so if you say so, I don't have any experience to counter with. What I'm proposing of course isn't a low volume car; I'm proposing a "hit" naturally. But I'm also just wondering why foreign car companies doing business here are able to undercut us so badly with decent cars under $20k.

And all of this because someone thinks $26,000 is too much for a Camaro.

It isn't $26,000; it's more than that. Significantly more than that which is the problem and what prompted this whole thread in the first place. Here's what the cheapest 2016 Camaro, a 4 cyl 1LT with NO OPTIONS other than an automatic trans will cost; this is assuming an average sales tax of 7%. And this isn't figuring in license or insurance!

It's $30,163, not $26,000. Maybe $4,000 doesn't mean much to you but I assure you to a new young buyer, that's a huge amount. If they have good credit and could even qualify for a loan for that much, that's a car payment of $555 a month assuming a 4% interest rate; not including insurance. If the price was $10,000 less (my $20k price point), the payment is $371; quite a difference. What if they can't qualify for a loan for more than $21k? Anything more than that is just simply impossible; "No Sale". They go and buy something cheaper; like a Honda, or Mazda, etc.

Now if you guys want to back down and hope for a Cruze hatch with the 270 HP engine, then awesome. That can happen and it WILL cost $24,000 or more.

I don't want a Cruze anything; hatch or otherwise and I wouldn't buy it even if it had 270 hp. Especially at that price; at that price I might as well get a Camaro.

If you want to hope GM freaking wakes up and realizes the finally have some exciting Opel products and bring over the Astra GTC, then even MOHR awesome. But that car will easily run you close to $30,000.

The Astra is a nice looking car and it has a nice looking interior.





But I can tell you right away why they aren't bringing it over here at that price; one word: "CAMARO". $30K starts you at the mid-range market.

What you want can't exist. RWD or FWD you can't get unique sheet metal and interior and "fun to drive" for under $20,000. It's a UNICORN. No one has such a beast. And if you bring up the Mazda one more time I'll puke. It's simply a nicely styled car. There is nothing special about it otherwise. I happen to like it a lot myself. But to say this car meets the criteria everyone is talking about doesn't work. It is no better looking or performing than the Astra and the GTC would blow the doors off the Focus ST. GM has that car. It's just not here.

hehehe well get your barf bag ready. Yesterday I went and bought a 2016 Mazda 6 Sport. Price? They were dealing and I got it for $21,393. It has 184 hp, weighs about 3,200 lbs, 4 doors with back seats adults can actually use. Looks good, rides good, gets 26 mpg city, 38 mpg hwy. With the auto trans it still has good acceleration so I know that 200 hp for a car that weighs 3,000 lbs would be more than enough. It has a 7" color screen, backup camera, bluetooth, syncs with my iPhone and probably has more crud than I will use but it's there. Beautiful 2-tone cloth interior with leather on the steering wheel and shift knob. I wanted a daily driver to replace my aging 2008 Toyota and I'm quite happy with it.

I had originally wanted a 2016 Camaro 2LT with auto and a V6 but that was before they announced engines and pricing. Here's what the price would be for a V6 2LT Camaro with a couple of options:

More than I wanted to spend for what I needed which is a replacement daily driver that's going to spend some time sitting in the parking lot at work. The Mazda 6 works perfectly for almost half the price.

For me, I want GM to develop a Cruze hatch with the 2.0T and keep it under $24,000. That would be a great car, fun to drive and it's only hurdle is Buick. And if the Cascada does well, maybe the GTC can follow.

Those price points are for those who can afford them which is fine, but there's a LOT of competition for your money when you start at around $25k and go up.

Originally Posted by Camaro2Tymer

I've tried to thoroughly read through the entire thread and I agree with some points being made. 1: An entry level, sport coupe/roadster is needed IMO. Now, personally, I don't think it necessarily needs to try to look like a little brother to the Camaro. Idk about everyone else but the number 1 car I run into around town that wants to race are the little 90's civics. A FWD, coupe or hatch with tons of aftermarket support. Now I know that's not a "new car" however, that's what I see the younger generation driving. 2: I have to agree that I think the younger generation wants the tech. They want the touch screens and the iphone support and what have you. a bare bones interior is not going to cut it. I do not think it can't look closer to the import scene though. The younger generation grew up with the fast and furious movies. Ricer central. I think something like the Honda S660 ($16,500 base) with a ton of aftermarket or factory support for performance would be a huge hit for a young age group. Is it slow? yes. Is a 90's civic slow? yes. They're looking for the aftermarket, "make it your own" type of vehicle. Throw a turbo and some NOS on it and go ape-sh*t. I think the price point on FRS and BRZ eliminated younger buyers.

Good post and welcome to the conversation! Maybe the younger generation does want tech but you kind of made my point about how popular "basic" cars are because the kids go aftermarket to "make it their own". That's the idea behind what I'm proposing.

I also wonder if they (I know exactly what you're talking about; the cheap Hondas are everywhere with the ricer crowd) are buying those cars because:

A. They absolutely love the looks!

B. It has all the "tech" gizmos in it

or

C. It's what they can afford.

I'm leaning towards C, and I think a great looking affordable pony car that they can customize to their hearts content would be a success. Number 3 says it's the impossible dream. Maybe it is; he knows much more about this process than I do so if Mr. Positive says it's impossible, I guess it is.

I just know that if a manufacturer hits the right note on what customers want, they find themselves with a huge sales success. Look at the Hellcat. Big, heavy beast...and it's priced up in Stingray territory! What was one of the major complaints of the 5th gen Camaro?.... yep, too big and heavy. However, it seems if it has an engine pumping out over 700 hp then all of a sudden they can't make them fast enough to keep up with sales... who knew!??

The impossible dream can sometimes become possible if you hit the right note...

[Number 3]

The Honda Civic made it's name because it was easy to mod. Not because it looked special, it was a compact car. Not because it handled well or was even particularly great to drive.

It had a very good suspension set up and it was really easy to have fun with it in the aftermarket. It had good bones.

And it was/is a Honda.

The new Civic pretty much abandoned these traits.

Go back and look at the reviews from 10 or so years ago. It was a really, really good small car at a good price and it got good FE. It became a cult hero for modders. They even got rid of any performance variants and are just now bringing it back with the new Si. And I doubt this car will be under $20,000 but we'll see.

[2010CamaroRS]

those prices are assuming you cant get invoice pricing...nobody in their right mind should pay MSRP for a car...if you know how to negotiate and most of us camaro guys do...you should have no problem getting invoice..

that said...yes the LT v6 is pricey...but look at the car compared to the competition...

challenger....heavy as hell....you NEED the 6.4 in that car to move it...theres 45k+
mustang....ugly as all hell....v6 moves it...but come on...who wants to be seen in that
camaro....turns heads...even the 4cyl will move it...v6 for spirited daily drivers...v8 for the track guys...

my build will NOT include leather...nor do i care for the interior lighting...i can always add that later..as im sure the parts will be available at some point...

youd be a fool to pay extra for the auto...learn to drive stick and save yourself 1500 bucks...use that towards the 4piston brembos

so for me...1LT hyper blue NPP and 4 piston brembos...with that...at invoice...im under 30k...even with tax and fees....insurance will be cheap...since ill only drive it MAYBE 5000mi a year

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The Honda Civic made it's name because it was easy to mod. Not because it looked special, it was a compact car. Not because it handled well or was even particularly great to drive.

It had a very good suspension set up and it was really easy to have fun with it in the aftermarket. It had good bones.

And it was/is a Honda.

The new Civic pretty much abandoned these traits.

Go back and look at the reviews from 10 or so years ago. It was a really, really good small car at a good price and it got good FE. It became a cult hero for modders. They even got rid of any performance variants and are just now bringing it back with the new Si. And I doubt this car will be under $20,000 but we'll see.

Well you just made my case and essentially proved my point about the viability of a good, solid decent pony car; make it easy to mod. Make it look great style-wise but leave all the expensive stuff to aftermarket so that (1) the original car is reasonably priced for its intended market, and (2) give it good "bones" so it's a good basic platform to add mods to.

The bean counters will hate it because you aren't putting a lot of "margin" items into it with "packages" and "bundles" that drive up the cost. But the value of a car like this goes way beyond immediate profit; it creates a brand loyalty and pulls in the new younger generation. How many stuck with Honda for years because of exactly what you described? How many when they got older and could afford it, bought a Honda Accord or SUV because they "grew up" on Honda Civics?

If the "parts bin" for this idea pony car could include some items from Opel, like that dash and/or some of the interior parts the Astra has... then that could save some production costs I would think.

Number 3; what is the reason why FWD is cheaper to produce than RWD? Is it actually cheaper or is the cost difference due to economy of scale?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ok, this is getting very "wishful".

1st, as usual, you guys are setting an very unrealistic price target.

I've tried to tell you that a 200 HP Sonic WILL cost $22,500 to $24,000.

This right here should hammer down the fact that this new pony car can not come in at less than 20K.

A Sonic RS, costs more than 20K. A FWD sub-compact car in RS trim costs more than 20K.

Doc, you are looking for a car that is around the size of a Malibu to cost less than a sub compact, I just don't see how that can be done.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by 2010CamaroRS

those prices are assuming you cant get invoice pricing...nobody in their right mind should pay MSRP for a car...if you know how to negotiate and most of us camaro guys do...you should have no problem getting invoice..

that said...yes the LT v6 is pricey...but look at the car compared to the competition...

challenger....heavy as hell....you NEED the 6.4 in that car to move it...theres 45k+
mustang....ugly as all hell....v6 moves it...but come on...who wants to be seen in that
camaro....turns heads...even the 4cyl will move it...v6 for spirited daily drivers...v8 for the track guys...

my build will NOT include leather...nor do i care for the interior lighting...i can always add that later..as im sure the parts will be available at some point...

youd be a fool to pay extra for the auto...learn to drive stick and save yourself 1500 bucks...use that towards the 4piston brembos

so for me...1LT hyper blue NPP and 4 piston brembos...with that...at invoice...im under 30k...even with tax and fees....insurance will be cheap...since ill only drive it MAYBE 5000mi a year

I posted the MSRP because that's a standard known amount rather than the variable of "negotiating". I'm not doubting the value of the Camaro; it is indeed well worth the cost if that's what you are looking for both in performance and price. I know how to drive a stick; check out my project thread if you want to know what's sitting in my garage (it's in my sig):

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45165

I wanted the auto for a daily driver and so the other half could drive it; she didn't want a manual. When you say you're getting a 1LT at that price I'm assuming that's the 4 cyl? And based on your estimated mileage I'm guessing this isn't going to be your daily driver? I don't know how old you are but insurance costs are also age-related which means younger drivers pay more; especially if it's their only car.

But it sounds like you're going to have a really nice car...congrats!

[2010CamaroRS]

nope thats with v6...

it wont be my daily...im 31 with a perfect driving record...minus a speeding ticket with my first camaro LOL

plus im moving from a city to a town...so ill customize the coverage pretty well to score a mighty cheap insurance premium

[Doc]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This right here should hammer down the fact that this new pony car can not come in at less than 20K.

A Sonic RS, costs more than 20K. A FWD sub-compact car in RS trim costs more than 20K.

Doc, you are looking for a car that is around the size of a Malibu to cost less than a sub compact

Of course it hammers down the fact for you; you've been wanting this the whole time lol.

Ok let's put up some numbers; forget the body style, size or platform; these are cars new buyers would see for sale on the lots:

2015 Honda Civic starts at $18,290 (2016 prices n/a)
2016 Honda Fit starts at $15,790
2015 Toyota Yaris starts at $14,845 (2016 prices n/a)
2016 Toyota Corolla starts at $17,230
2016 Mazda 3 starts at $17,845
2016 Mazda CX3 (SUV) starts at $19,960
2015 Subaru Impreza starts at $18,195 (2016 prices n/a)
2015 Nissan Versa sedan starts at $11,990 (2016 prices n/a)
2015 Nissan Versa Note starts at $14,180 (2016 prices n/a)
2015 Nissan Sentra starts at $16,480 (2016 prices n/a)
2016 Nissan Cube starts at $16,900
2016 Hyundai Accent starts at $14,745
2016 Hyundai Elantra starts at $17,250
2016 Hyundai Elantra GT starts at $18,800
2016 Hyundai Veloster starts at $18,000
2016 Kia Soul starts at $15,690
2016 Kia Forte starts at $15,990
2016 Kia Rio starts at $14,165

Those are just some of the imports (not a comprehensive list). Domestically we have:

2016 Ford Fiesta starts at $14,090
2016 Ford Focus starts at $17,225
2015 Dodge Dart starts $16,495 (2016 prices n/a)
2015 Chevy Spark starts at $12,270 (2016 prices n/a)
2016 Chevy Cruze starts at $16,170
2015 Chevy Sonic starts at $14,245 (2016 prices n/a)

Again that's not a comprehensive list, but it shows there are a lot of choices below $20k... that aren't from Chevy or GM. I honestly don't understand why a simple pony car can't be made for less than $22k? All those cars above are being made and sold; and granted they are various sizes and I think almost all are FWD but what would drive up the cost so much more to produce a basic pony car? I'm not being sarcastic; I'm trying to understand why we CAN'T do this? Would any of those foreign companies be able to?

[Posaune]

Just food for thought, it was said for years that GM could not make money on their small cars in the U.S. Now we have the Sonic which is the only subcompact assembled in the U.S. AND it makes a profit.

[shaffe]

Now those are all essentially 4 door basic commuter cars. When it comes down to it, there is really nothing special about any of those cars. (had a yaris and corrola as a rental car, that is about as basic as it can get.) However once you put options on them that makes them more than just basic, those cars easily top 20K

As #3 mentioned, Sonic RS is a 21K car. My Focus listed for 23K, a Focus ST is 25, a Civic Si is 23K. It seems that once you take that basic car, and put anything on it that makes it a sportier version, it crosses that 20K threshold you put on this pony car.

Also for reasons we haven't figured out yet, RWD seems to be more expensive than FWD. Also for the most part coupes are more expensive than their sedan counter parts. Why is a ATS sedan start at 33, yet the coupe starts at 37???? Honda Accord coupe is something like 1500 more than the sedan.

Also finally I come back to the size. Now obviously I am estimating, but the car you want to build has a wheel base the same size of the Malibu. Almost every car you put on that list is a compact, or subcompact. Almost every midsize sedan starts around 22 or 23 in the most basic trim offered. You take a car that size and add say even just 1K to the price to make it a coupe(bc coupes are usually more expensive) that puts that car in its most basic trim 23 to 24. I just don't see how you can build a car the size of a Malibu, and have it cost 4K less.

Even if you went full on raid the parts bin, just explain to me without using super cheap materials, how are you going to build a car the size of a Malibu, which starts at 23290 for 3,300 bucks less?

[ParisTNDude]

GM brought the Astra over here not too many years ago and it was a disaster. It was re-badged as a Saturn. I can't see them ever doing that since they want to compete with Ford's home-grown cars. The Buick Regal is a rebadged Opal from Germany and a great car, but Buicks don't seem to sell well. The Regal is a really great car and I'm looking at one currently, especially when it's listed at $6k discount. It has every option available.

[laborsmith]

Originally Posted by Posaune

Just food for thought, it was said for years that GM could not make money on their small cars in the U.S. Now we have the Sonic which is the only subcompact assembled in the U.S. AND it makes a profit.

But about 40% of the Orion assemblers are Tier II. If not for that it is likely GM could not make money on the Sonic.

Laborsmith

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ok, this is getting very "wishful".

1st, as usual, you guys are setting an very unrealistic price target.

I've tried to tell you that a 200 HP Sonic WILL cost $22,500 to $24,000. A Fiests ST with 130 HP will run you $21,000 base. So $22,500 would be pretty solid.

I've tried to tell you that a 270 HP Cruze (Sedan only at this time) would run you $24,000 or more. Very competitive with the Focus ST which is also $24,000. But you'll have none of that.

The Fiesta ST comes with a 1.6Ecoboost with 180hp, not 130HP. So why does the Sonic RS have a 138hp engine at a nearly identical price point? Does the 1.6T Ecotec cost a great deal more than the 1.4T Ecotec? Doubt it. I have a hard time believing Ford can do it and GM can't.

Originally Posted by Number 3

What you want is still a unique car with allllll new sheetmetal and allllll new interior that is sporty and exciting yet somehow below $20,000.

Then you pile on with wagons and ute body styles that would sell at ridiculously low volumes. Wagons don't sell and there is really a pretty good reason the G8 Ute never made it.

IDK, HHR managed to average about 75K units per year. You don't think something like this (updated but still somewhat retro-y) could sell in good volumes in a $19-$26K price range?

G8 would have had a price point in the mid $30s-$40K at least. No volume there. However, if the idea is to get volume off this vehicle, you role other existing program updates into it. GM is in the middle of a big consolidation of platforms. That is why I suggested rolling the Chevy Tornado/Montana into it.

Originally Posted by Number 3

You cannot have a low volume, unique car with great "fun to drive" quotient for under $20,000.

Start with a base Sonic LS which starts at $15K. 1.4T is a $700 option over the 1.8L Ecotec. So let's just call it $16K. Does the 1.6T cost more to manufacture than the 1.4T? I would bet their unit costs are pretty close. So lets say the 1.6T is an additional $1500 option. Now we are at $17.5K still have $2.5k for chassis improvements. Not low volume but realistic/plausible. At the lowest price point for the more "fun to drive" version, you don't need leather seats standard, or super fancy wheels, or power seats that are heated and cooled.

Originally Posted by Number 3

And all of this because someone thinks $26,000 is too much for a Camaro.

When its direct competitor sitting across the street starts several thousand less, yes, I do.

Originally Posted by Number 3

If you want to hope GM freaking wakes up and realizes the finally have some exciting Opel products and bring over the Astra GTC, then even MOHR awesome. But that car will easily run you close to $30,000.

They will make great Buicks.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by laborsmith

But about 40% of the Orion assemblers are Tier II. If not for that it is likely GM could not make money on the Sonic.

Laborsmith

Yes, I know. They were able to negotiate with the union a deal which allows them to make a profit on the Sonic. Kudos to both for working together to make it happen.