2013 Mustang GT500 MEGA THREAD

[eolson]

Interesting points made on the comment threads below the article.

" So the slower car with less overall performance wins? Please tell me how this makes sense."

http://www.insideline.com/ford/musta...shoot-out.html

" The 2011 GT500 with only 550 hp posted the same time as the ZL1 - 1:25.6. And that's with 30 less hp."

"If you're going to judge a sports car by how it handles, and not because of its performance, then just give the sports car crown to the 167 hp MX-5 already."

Obviously what people define as a great track car, a great driving car, and an enjoyable driving car varies a lot. If you look at the actual numbers, you see that the ZL1 has better lateral grip 1.03 compared to .98, and is faster on the slalom by 1.6mph.

As someone who likes driving a Mustang, and has gotten used to the extra work(as described) of driving it, I find it interesting that when they said the ZL1 "dropped trou" on the GT500 on the mountain road test, they were referring again to the "feeling" or"ease" or "comfort" of taking the corners in the ZL1 was what was "dropping trou"

I guess from that point of view the GTR certainly "drops trou" on the previous Vipers then.

Knowing how a Mustang drives, and many other cars, I only interested in the numbers, the actual math that says how fast the cars can do the various test activities.

Since the 2011 GT500 attained the same time as the ZL1 on this track( Willow) when tested, and the 2013 GT500 beat those times by a hair, as a Mustang enthusiast, I wish the reviewers would stop qualifying everything from the stand point of how they "feel"

Most people it seems prefer their wives and or girlfriends, or both, to be polite at parties at family gatherings but wicked in bed. I'm afraid the Mustangs are wicked in bed and not so polite at parties. So what, this 2013 GT500 car has the same times as the ZL1 at this track, and so did the 2011 GT500.

If the rest of the mag articles keep spinning the "manners" angle, but are showing the numbers this close between the two cars at actual road curses, then the rest of the issues are left to preference, and certainly don't add up detectable differences on the street for driving fast. Both cars are the fastest pony cars ever! Hurray! Erik

[newb]

Is it spinning an angle or referencing consistency? A hero lap does not mean faster/better track vehicle. Have you ever watched racing and the guy with the fastest single lap finished third? That I'd because the guys in front of him were consistently fast. Not just a hero lap. If you cannot duplicate the fast lap, it is useless. So to me they are saying the gt set a fast lap time but overall the ZL1 was consistently fast.

I would like to see which car was faster over a 5 lap stretch. Not single lap time, but total. That will define the better track time to me.

[LOWDOWN]

From Inside Line:

2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1
Best Lap: 1:25.57

The ZL1 is a car in which you feel instantly comfortable. You can start pounding around with impunity from the first sighting lap. Why? For one, its electric-assist steering is superb, with excellent feel and proper weighting. Combine that with those wide tires and magnetic dampers and this car has plenty of grip, always going exactly where you point it and staying planted.

The brakes didn't disappoint either, with a firm pedal that remained that way throughout our hot lapping. There's also less dive and more control when entering turns quickly compared to the Mustang that gives you the confidence to mash on the Camaro's brakes at the last second.


The ZL1's shifter is also superb. Not just because of its sexy suede covering, but because the short lever slides precisely and easily into the next gear every time, unlike the Shelby's linkage which is at times balky and requires a heavier hand. This is especially important for the Camaro driver, because its shorter gearing requires more shifting per lap than the Mustang.

And then there's PTM. We ran the Camaro in its most serious mode, PTM-5, which turns the stability system off and puts traction control into Race setting. When proper grip is available, and on our hot day in the desert it certainly was, you can literally wood the throttle like a goon at, or just before, corner apex. It's unnatural at first, and your brain tells you that it's not going to work. But just when you're about to give up, it delivers the perfect amount of slip out of a corner and you feel like a hero. From that point on, the Camaro becomes your best friend.

It's still a Camaro, though, so it has some faults. It struggled mightily with understeer through the final skid pad turn leading onto Willow's front straight. No amount of throttle adjustments would cure this, and there's not a thing PTM can do about understeer.

The ZL1 could also use a better pair of front seats, as the wide buckets — which are thoroughly comfortable — just don't have the lateral support of the Shelby's optional Recaros.

2013 Ford Shelby GT500
Best lap: 1:24.92

All it took was one lap around Streets of Willow in the Shelby GT500 and we understood why Ford officials conducted the initial press drives with the traction control system on. This thing is a wild ride. An edge-of-your-seat, check-the-life-insurance, remember-your-kids kind of ride that is unmatched in the pony car world.

While the Shelby has significantly more power than the ZL1, it also has skinnier tires and less sophisticated chassis, damper and traction control systems. Its engine may be ahead of the Camaro's, but everything else is a bit behind.

And because Ford's AdvanceTrac Sport setting affects the stability control system, unlike Chevy's PTM-5, the system is more restrictive (and slower) than driving with everything off. So we turned everything off. And tried to hold on.


You're a lot busier behind the wheel in the Mustang, constantly controlling throttle-on oversteer as the engine's prodigious power dominates. Getting sideways is the slow way around a track, but the Mustang's throttle-steering talents did help it rotate better through the tighter turns.

The Mustang's steering offers less feedback than the Camaro and the chassis gets upset more easily by quick transitions, with more body roll and a looser tail. It's a chore to keep the Mustang on the track, but it's more fun if you're just looking for the most slides per mile.

More than anything, the ferocity with which the Shelby rockets and bellows down the straights puts it in a different world than the Camaro. And for some, the utter ground-pounding speed of the Shelby is worth its lack of precision.

What Do the Numbers Say?
Looking at the data from our VBOX timing system, several things come to light. The most obvious is the Mustang's speed advantage when the track turns straight. Its maximum velocity was more than 5 mph higher than the Camaro on the fastest part of the track — the back straight before a blind chicane.

Possibly because the Camaro was going slower but also because it's more precise, we held our speed longer into that chicane, and the lack of confidence in the Mustang made it 7 mph slower at the hard, downhill off-camber left-hander that follows.

Through the skid pad turn that leads onto the front straight, the GT500's ability to steer with the throttle helped. But while the GT500 carried a brilliant slide off the skid pad onto the straight, Chevy's PTM system put the power down and pushed the Camaro faster onto the straight, with a 2-mph advantage at start/finish before being gobbled up by the GT500 prior to Turn 1.

The data also showed how much more consistent our lines and lap times were with the Camaro. In contrast, the Mustang's laps were filled with lots of throttle and steering adjustments, not to mention plenty of slides.

The Winner
So which is the better track car? Without question, it's the 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1.


Sure, it's possible to throw down a golden lap in the Mustang if you get everything right, but duplicating that time is never easy. And you'll be working far harder and more over the limit in the Shelby.

The Camaro ZL1 can turn consistent fast laps all day. It's infinitely more precise and capable, and genuinely rewarding in its engineering goodness. The fact that it was only about a half second off the Shelby's best time despite a huge power deficit speaks volumes.

The ZL1 has taken pony cars to a new level of handling and on-track composure that, frankly, we didn't think was possible. It makes the Camaro ZL1 the new definition of American Badassery. One that's really not bad at all.

.................................................. .................................................. ...........................

Chassis dynamics vs. Engine dynamics and 24% greater Weight-to-Power advantage

Finesse vs. drifting...

Pro Tour vs. Pro Street.

[devildog1679]

Originally Posted by newb

Is it spinning an angle or referencing consistency? A hero lap does not mean faster/better track vehicle. Have you ever watched racing and the guy with the fastest single lap finished third? That I'd because the guys in front of him were consistently fast. Not just a hero lap. If you cannot duplicate the fast lap, it is useless. So to me they are saying the gt set a fast lap time but overall the ZL1 was consistently fast.

I would like to see which car was faster over a 5 lap stretch. Not single lap time, but total. That will define the better track time to me.

Damn it's funny how it goes from "Hey let's see the lap times" to "Hey let's see the times over a 5 lap stretch. Not saying you said the first but many have. Let's just face it, the Gt500 may be the better track car for an experienced driver while the ZL1 will be the pick for a Newb. Still mor magazine reviews left, including the big three. In the end I hope the fanboys on both sides will admit defeat. Either way I would love to own either one but as an experiened driver I would rather have the faster car. Though I do prefer the looks of the ZL1.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

if my aunt had a dick she would be my uncle

How erudite of you... And his name would then be Little Richard?

You must have learned your colloquialisms on a certain SVT-centered site...

[The IOM Ninja]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

From Inside Line:

2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1
Best Lap: 1:25.57

The ZL1 is a car in which you feel instantly comfortable. You can start pounding around with impunity from the first sighting lap. Why? For one, its electric-assist steering is superb, with excellent feel and proper weighting. Combine that with those wide tires and magnetic dampers and this car has plenty of grip, always going exactly where you point it and staying planted.

The brakes didn't disappoint either, with a firm pedal that remained that way throughout our hot lapping. There's also less dive and more control when entering turns quickly compared to the Mustang that gives you the confidence to mash on the Camaro's brakes at the last second.


The ZL1's shifter is also superb. Not just because of its sexy suede covering, but because the short lever slides precisely and easily into the next gear every time, unlike the Shelby's linkage which is at times balky and requires a heavier hand. This is especially important for the Camaro driver, because its shorter gearing requires more shifting per lap than the Mustang.

And then there's PTM. We ran the Camaro in its most serious mode, PTM-5, which turns the stability system off and puts traction control into Race setting. When proper grip is available, and on our hot day in the desert it certainly was, you can literally wood the throttle like a goon at, or just before, corner apex. It's unnatural at first, and your brain tells you that it's not going to work. But just when you're about to give up, it delivers the perfect amount of slip out of a corner and you feel like a hero. From that point on, the Camaro becomes your best friend.

It's still a Camaro, though, so it has some faults. It struggled mightily with understeer through the final skid pad turn leading onto Willow's front straight. No amount of throttle adjustments would cure this, and there's not a thing PTM can do about understeer.

The ZL1 could also use a better pair of front seats, as the wide buckets — which are thoroughly comfortable — just don't have the lateral support of the Shelby's optional Recaros.

2013 Ford Shelby GT500
Best lap: 1:24.92

All it took was one lap around Streets of Willow in the Shelby GT500 and we understood why Ford officials conducted the initial press drives with the traction control system on. This thing is a wild ride. An edge-of-your-seat, check-the-life-insurance, remember-your-kids kind of ride that is unmatched in the pony car world.

While the Shelby has significantly more power than the ZL1, it also has skinnier tires and less sophisticated chassis, damper and traction control systems. Its engine may be ahead of the Camaro's, but everything else is a bit behind.

And because Ford's AdvanceTrac Sport setting affects the stability control system, unlike Chevy's PTM-5, the system is more restrictive (and slower) than driving with everything off. So we turned everything off. And tried to hold on.


You're a lot busier behind the wheel in the Mustang, constantly controlling throttle-on oversteer as the engine's prodigious power dominates. Getting sideways is the slow way around a track, but the Mustang's throttle-steering talents did help it rotate better through the tighter turns.

The Mustang's steering offers less feedback than the Camaro and the chassis gets upset more easily by quick transitions, with more body roll and a looser tail. It's a chore to keep the Mustang on the track, but it's more fun if you're just looking for the most slides per mile.

More than anything, the ferocity with which the Shelby rockets and bellows down the straights puts it in a different world than the Camaro. And for some, the utter ground-pounding speed of the Shelby is worth its lack of precision.

What Do the Numbers Say?
Looking at the data from our VBOX timing system, several things come to light. The most obvious is the Mustang's speed advantage when the track turns straight. Its maximum velocity was more than 5 mph higher than the Camaro on the fastest part of the track — the back straight before a blind chicane.

Possibly because the Camaro was going slower but also because it's more precise, we held our speed longer into that chicane, and the lack of confidence in the Mustang made it 7 mph slower at the hard, downhill off-camber left-hander that follows.

Through the skid pad turn that leads onto the front straight, the GT500's ability to steer with the throttle helped. But while the GT500 carried a brilliant slide off the skid pad onto the straight, Chevy's PTM system put the power down and pushed the Camaro faster onto the straight, with a 2-mph advantage at start/finish before being gobbled up by the GT500 prior to Turn 1.

The data also showed how much more consistent our lines and lap times were with the Camaro. In contrast, the Mustang's laps were filled with lots of throttle and steering adjustments, not to mention plenty of slides.

The Winner
So which is the better track car? Without question, it's the 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1.


Sure, it's possible to throw down a golden lap in the Mustang if you get everything right, but duplicating that time is never easy. And you'll be working far harder and more over the limit in the Shelby.

The Camaro ZL1 can turn consistent fast laps all day. It's infinitely more precise and capable, and genuinely rewarding in its engineering goodness. The fact that it was only about a half second off the Shelby's best time despite a huge power deficit speaks volumes.

The ZL1 has taken pony cars to a new level of handling and on-track composure that, frankly, we didn't think was possible. It makes the Camaro ZL1 the new definition of American Badassery. One that's really not bad at all.

.................................................. .................................................. ...........................

Chassis dynamics vs. Engine dynamics and 24% greater Weight-to-Power advantage

Finesse vs. drifting...

Pro Tour vs. Pro Street.

So I guess we can write off Nurburgring times since they are nothing but hero laps?

[devildog1679]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

From Inside Line:

2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1
Best Lap: 1:25.57

The ZL1 is a car in which you feel instantly comfortable. You can start pounding around with impunity from the first sighting lap. Why? For one, its electric-assist steering is superb, with excellent feel and proper weighting. Combine that with those wide tires and magnetic dampers and this car has plenty of grip, always going exactly where you point it and staying planted.

The brakes didn't disappoint either, with a firm pedal that remained that way throughout our hot lapping. There's also less dive and more control when entering turns quickly compared to the Mustang that gives you the confidence to mash on the Camaro's brakes at the last second.


The ZL1's shifter is also superb. Not just because of its sexy suede covering, but because the short lever slides precisely and easily into the next gear every time, unlike the Shelby's linkage which is at times balky and requires a heavier hand. This is especially important for the Camaro driver, because its shorter gearing requires more shifting per lap than the Mustang.

And then there's PTM. We ran the Camaro in its most serious mode, PTM-5, which turns the stability system off and puts traction control into Race setting. When proper grip is available, and on our hot day in the desert it certainly was, you can literally wood the throttle like a goon at, or just before, corner apex. It's unnatural at first, and your brain tells you that it's not going to work. But just when you're about to give up, it delivers the perfect amount of slip out of a corner and you feel like a hero. From that point on, the Camaro becomes your best friend.

It's still a Camaro, though, so it has some faults. It struggled mightily with understeer through the final skid pad turn leading onto Willow's front straight. No amount of throttle adjustments would cure this, and there's not a thing PTM can do about understeer.

The ZL1 could also use a better pair of front seats, as the wide buckets — which are thoroughly comfortable — just don't have the lateral support of the Shelby's optional Recaros.

2013 Ford Shelby GT500
Best lap: 1:24.92

All it took was one lap around Streets of Willow in the Shelby GT500 and we understood why Ford officials conducted the initial press drives with the traction control system on. This thing is a wild ride. An edge-of-your-seat, check-the-life-insurance, remember-your-kids kind of ride that is unmatched in the pony car world.

While the Shelby has significantly more power than the ZL1, it also has skinnier tires and less sophisticated chassis, damper and traction control systems. Its engine may be ahead of the Camaro's, but everything else is a bit behind.

And because Ford's AdvanceTrac Sport setting affects the stability control system, unlike Chevy's PTM-5, the system is more restrictive (and slower) than driving with everything off. So we turned everything off. And tried to hold on.


You're a lot busier behind the wheel in the Mustang, constantly controlling throttle-on oversteer as the engine's prodigious power dominates. Getting sideways is the slow way around a track, but the Mustang's throttle-steering talents did help it rotate better through the tighter turns.

The Mustang's steering offers less feedback than the Camaro and the chassis gets upset more easily by quick transitions, with more body roll and a looser tail. It's a chore to keep the Mustang on the track, but it's more fun if you're just looking for the most slides per mile.

More than anything, the ferocity with which the Shelby rockets and bellows down the straights puts it in a different world than the Camaro. And for some, the utter ground-pounding speed of the Shelby is worth its lack of precision.

What Do the Numbers Say?
Looking at the data from our VBOX timing system, several things come to light. The most obvious is the Mustang's speed advantage when the track turns straight. Its maximum velocity was more than 5 mph higher than the Camaro on the fastest part of the track — the back straight before a blind chicane.

Possibly because the Camaro was going slower but also because it's more precise, we held our speed longer into that chicane, and the lack of confidence in the Mustang made it 7 mph slower at the hard, downhill off-camber left-hander that follows.

Through the skid pad turn that leads onto the front straight, the GT500's ability to steer with the throttle helped. But while the GT500 carried a brilliant slide off the skid pad onto the straight, Chevy's PTM system put the power down and pushed the Camaro faster onto the straight, with a 2-mph advantage at start/finish before being gobbled up by the GT500 prior to Turn 1.

The data also showed how much more consistent our lines and lap times were with the Camaro. In contrast, the Mustang's laps were filled with lots of throttle and steering adjustments, not to mention plenty of slides.

The Winner
So which is the better track car? Without question, it's the 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1.


Sure, it's possible to throw down a golden lap in the Mustang if you get everything right, but duplicating that time is never easy. And you'll be working far harder and more over the limit in the Shelby.

The Camaro ZL1 can turn consistent fast laps all day. It's infinitely more precise and capable, and genuinely rewarding in its engineering goodness. The fact that it was only about a half second off the Shelby's best time despite a huge power deficit speaks volumes.

The ZL1 has taken pony cars to a new level of handling and on-track composure that, frankly, we didn't think was possible. It makes the Camaro ZL1 the new definition of American Badassery. One that's really not bad at all.

.................................................. .................................................. ...........................

Chassis dynamics vs. Engine dynamics and 24% greater Weight-to-Power advantage

Finesse vs. drifting...

Pro Tour vs. Pro Street.

So what I'm reading is that the GT500 is for someone who actually knows how to drive, and the ZL1 is for people who want the car to drive itself on the track?

I thought the goal of racing was to go the fastest......

Second paragraph in the article sums it up. It takes skill to drive the GT500. So for your rookie driver the ZL1 could be the better choice and faster car. For an experienced driver that enjoys feeling connected to the car and wants to post the fastest times possible. The GT500 might the best option. Go drive a EVO MR, an idiot with a liscence can post crazy times. I prefer driving feel vs. a video game.

[C5RocksC5]

I think its a toss up between these two cars in the track. One track, the ZL1 will come on top, in another, the GT500 will win. They are both "capable" cars for short weekend track outings. On the strip, the GT500 is a clear winner. Easier to drive, the ZL1 is a clear winner.

[Bhobbs]

So, basically, GM has to have a response by the time the Mustang gets IRS which will moot the point of the ZL1 being the better handling car.

[Doubleblank]

A true "track car" should be able to run lots of laps at fast times. Drag racing is essentially a one-and-done race. I haven't ever been to a one lap road race.

I've owned a race team for the last three years running both Camaro SS's and Boss302R's in Grand Am and World Challenge. We've had all types of professional and amateur drivers behind the wheel in races, practice and testing (including Davie Jones in 2010). I've seen many a good driver go out and get a great time in qualifying ......call it a hero lap..... but come in with the tires wasted so that he isn't competitive during the race (you have to start on the tires you qualify with) or they ran the car so close to or over the edge that the lap isn't safely repeatable.

So before I'm ready to declare either car the "victor" at a road course.......I need to see how each performs over at least 30 minutes of track time....and what do the tires/brakes/etc look like afterwards.

[9c1ny]

So now what is the ZL1 better in??
Looks??

[devildog1679]

Originally Posted by The IOM Ninja

So I guess we can write off Nurburgring times since they are nothing but hero laps?

Only if the GT500 posts a faster time. If the Zl1 has the faster time than it is counted as a win

[devildog1679]

Originally Posted by Doubleblank

A true "track car" should be able to run lots of laps at fast times. Drag racing is essentially a one-and-done race. I haven't ever been to a one lap road race.

I've owned a race team for the last three years running both Camaro SS's and Boss302R's in Grand Am and World Challenge. We've had all types of professional and amateur drivers behind the wheel in races, practice and testing (including Davie Jones in 2010). I've seen many a good driver go out and get a great time in qualifying ......call it a hero lap..... but come in with the tires wasted so that he isn't competitive during the race (you have to start on the tires you qualify with) or they ran the car so close to or over the edge that the lap isn't safely repeatable.

So before I'm ready to declare either car the "victor" at a road course.......I need to see how each performs over at least 30 minutes of track time....and what do the tires/brakes/etc look like afterwards.

Agree on your comment but that test will never happen atleast not by one of the car mags, would be cool if they did. I think most people on here are more interested in bragging rights anyway.

Originally Posted by 9c1ny

So now what is the ZL1 better in??
Looks??

As a 2012 5.0 owner I will have to say hands down yes, the ZL1 is a bad ass lookign car.

I see the ownership of these two car falling into a few scenarios.

1. GT500- Avid drag racer
2. GT500- Street racer (light to light) Idiots in my book, keep it on the track
3. ZL1- Track day enthusiast, non-competition
4. GT500- Competition track days (only if other mags also have it posting faster times)
5. ZL1- Cruiser, interested in looks over performance
6. ZL1- Canyon carving
7. GT500- Bench racer/bragging rights

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Doubleblank

A true "track car" should be able to run lots of laps at fast times. Drag racing is essentially a one-and-done race. I haven't ever been to a one lap road race.

I've owned a race team for the last three years running both Camaro SS's and Boss302R's in Grand Am and World Challenge. We've had all types of professional and amateur drivers behind the wheel in races, practice and testing (including Davie Jones in 2010). I've seen many a good driver go out and get a great time in qualifying ......call it a hero lap..... but come in with the tires wasted so that he isn't competitive during the race (you have to start on the tires you qualify with) or they ran the car so close to or over the edge that the lap isn't safely repeatable.

So before I'm ready to declare either car the "victor" at a road course.......I need to see how each performs over at least 30 minutes of track time....and what do the tires/brakes/etc look like afterwards.

Case in point: Yesterday in the NASCAR race at Sonoma, Marcos Ambrose DOMINATED in both Practice AND Qualifying. Sat on the Pole. Led early...then fell back to the pack. Finished 8th. But his "hero lap(s)" were the very BEST.

As a Team owner, you'll know that on any given day, any given car and/or driver can dominate, but the checkered flag drops on the BEST combination of speed, handling, tire management and consistency...which "drifting" seldom allows, over time.

I'm also amazed AGAIN at the number of folks who assume ALL GT500s are created "equal". Without the TWO optional packages, they are NOT, with regard to "handling".