Stroker in stages?

[RaceFuel]

Alrighty all...

I've done my research, and I'm seeing that it looks like the most economical and reliable route for upping the displacement is going to be a 416 stroker. That being said..I've got more questions, please forgive me for asking seemingly silly ones..I just am new to the LS world, and modern motors in general. I'm not super hyped about throwing $10,000 at a motor in one go, and would rather work up in stages.

1: How well do stock LS3/L99 heads flow? Are they "good enough" for a stroker to live with for a while? I read where putting Mast Motorsports Black Label 4.00 bore heads were good for 40 WHP and 10TQ on a moderate cammed, stock displacement L99. Would it be better to put better heads on a stock motor and THEN do a stroker kit, or do a stroker kit with stock heads later?

2: On cams...is it necessary to have chop/lope in order to make power? I do love cammed up classic cars, but for these cars I almost think the smooth idle is more attractive. Is it possible to have the best of both worlds with some compromise? Smooth, stock idle but with significant power gains? I see that GPI offers custom ground VVT cams. Would it be better to have the cam ground with a stroker in mind in the future, THEN get a stroker kit or do the cam and stroker at the same time?

3: Since I'm not going super big cube or really aggressive, is just porting the stock intake manifold and throttle body going to be ideal? While stuff like the FAST intake is needed for max effort, big cube engines.

Sorry if these are moronic questions, I'm just trying to assemble information so I know budget and plan things out.

[SPCBA]

I am not a professional. Have obtained knowledge of several LS builds of my own.

1-not ever going to buy those heads give 40 hp and 10 tq on a stock LS3/99. If it does even half that while making the power band wonky and pissing off your tuner I'd be surprised.

2- the cam can make power without the idle you'd speak of yes. Good cam and attentive tuner will work without chop. Get the cam for the stroker when you have the stroker. overlapping funds...

3- really up to you which route. If you don't want max effort max dollar with you build you can save places and gain reliability. The extras that don't add reliability or even worse take away from it are the places to save. My 5th gen is set up very conservatively engine wise but it last and lasts while making great predictable get my girls kids to school Poooooower.

[RaceFuel]

Originally Posted by SPCBA

I am not a professional. Have obtained knowledge of several LS builds of my own.

1-not ever going to buy those heads give 40 hp and 10 tq on a stock LS3/99. If it does even half that while making the power band wonky and pissing off your tuner I'd be surprised.

2- the cam can make power without the idle you'd speak of yes. Good cam and attentive tuner will work without chop. Get the cam for the stroker when you have the stroker. Overlapping labor overlapping funds...

3- really up to you which route. If you don't want max effort max dollar with you build you can save places and gain reliability. The extras that don't add reliability or even worse take away from it are the places to save. My 5th gen is set up very conservatively engine wise but it last and lasts while making great predictable get my girls kids to school Poooooower.

Thanks for the insight!

Yes, long term reliability and durability are a concern of mine. I'd much rather have a 525 HP (crank) motor last for 50,000 miles than a 600 HP motor that needs to be refreshed at 20,000 miles.

[Taco Time]

Originally Posted by RaceFuel

Alrighty all...

I've done my research, and I'm seeing that it looks like the most economical and reliable route for upping the displacement is going to be a 416 stroker. That being said..I've got more questions, please forgive me for asking seemingly silly ones..I just am new to the LS world, and modern motors in general. I'm not super hyped about throwing $10,000 at a motor in one go, and would rather work up in stages.

1: How well do stock LS3/L99 heads flow? Are they "good enough" for a stroker to live with for a while? I read where putting Mast Motorsports Black Label 4.00 bore heads were good for 40 WHP and 10TQ on a moderate cammed, stock displacement L99. Would it be better to put better heads on a stock motor and THEN do a stroker kit, or do a stroker kit with stock heads later?

2: On cams...is it necessary to have chop/lope in order to make power? I do love cammed up classic cars, but for these cars I almost think the smooth idle is more attractive. Is it possible to have the best of both worlds with some compromise? Smooth, stock idle but with significant power gains? I see that GPI offers custom ground VVT cams. Would it be better to have the cam ground with a stroker in mind in the future, THEN get a stroker kit or do the cam and stroker at the same time?

3: Since I'm not going super big cube or really aggressive, is just porting the stock intake manifold and throttle body going to be ideal? While stuff like the FAST intake is needed for max effort, big cube engines.

Sorry if these are moronic questions, I'm just trying to assemble information so I know budget and plan things out.

1. Big question. What are your actual goals for your car? (As in long term, pipe dream kinda stuff.) Stroker only or do you see your self adding forced induction to the equation? hp goals? etc.

Answer that and people can give you better answers.

2. I saw your other post about buying an SS. depending on your hp goals, SS auto transmissions suck. If you want high hp then you'd need a ZL1 trans.

3. have you considered looking in the member for sale section on this forum? There are several nice cars for sale that would suit your needs.

4. your stroker price is high. I'd get more estimates. Talk to a builder in-depth about what you're trying to do here. (get professional guidance, and use this forum as additional info.)

Yes stock heads are good enough for a stroker. Ported or aftermarket heads are better though.

Yes you can get gains from a cam without the chop. It's blasphemy, but whatever.

Get a ported throttle body (either Vmax or have it done by Bo White.) You don't need a FAST, but it should give you gains on a stroker. (still prob insignificant though.) You could port your stock intake, or leave it alone. All would be acceptable. (The question is on intakes, do you want to spend $1k for ~5hp.)

Also doing a build in stages as opposed to all at once could be more expensive in the long run. So, again, talk to a builder and weigh your options.

[RaceFuel]

My HP goals aren't high, and FI isn't going to be something that happens in the future, nor is nitrous.
In terms of power I'd like to be in the 485WHP range and 440-450 WTQ range..nothing extreme or anything the auto trans can't handle. My background primarily is drag racing but this would not be a serious street/strip car. If I could, with gearing and such, get it to run in the 11.7 ET and trapping around 115 MPH range..I'd be happy to leave it there. If I want more than that I'll be looking into an F-body car and building a serious drag car from that.

I guess boiled down...a weekend fun car that can handle road trips, Friday night drags and still be a good street car. I was hoping by adding cubes I could run a less radical cam and have a broad, usable powerband with a flat torque curve.

[Strong66]

Sounds like you would love a whipple. My car is stock other than the whipple and meets your HP and TQ goals and gets 20 mpg

[Unreal]

If you are going to mess with the heads/cam/etc later, that is just labor again, tuning again, gaskets/fluids again. You will spend a lot of extra money unless you are doing labor/tuning yourself.

Best off to just save up and do it at once.

[christianchevell]

1: How well do stock LS3/L99 heads flow? Are they "good enough" for a stroker to live with for a while? I read where putting Mast Motorsports Black Label 4.00 bore heads were good for 40 WHP and 10TQ on a moderate cammed, stock displacement L99. Would it be better to put better heads on a stock motor and THEN do a stroker kit, or do a stroker kit with stock heads later?

Not knowing what you have for a car for one with how many miles..... the stroker should gain 50 ft lbs of torque or more over stock cubes and yes you can put better heads on ditch your AFM on the stock engine cam it and be happy for most

the stock heads flow fine, a set of new GMPP heads with the hollow intake valves you don't have with your lower redline in the l99 would be real good For 1200$ from summit like I did.... Then you could more safely raise your rpm limiter in the tune, also you will want new ls3/ls7 lifters and ditch the AFM.... you would be smart to talk to Rhino at GPI or others about a VVT cam.... But even smarter to know you could sell your stock block and buy one as new is $1200 for a bare block add the heads.... Honing the engine can only go .020 over no boring the sleeves are cast into the block making it a little more than many know as the sleeves had to be align honed to start with a .005 over hone is usually what the new block gets for the pistons for a 416/427.
2: On cams...is it necessary to have chop/lope in order to make power? I do love cammed up classic cars, but for these cars I almost think the smooth idle is more attractive. Is it possible to have the best of both worlds with some compromise?

Smooth, stock idle but with significant power gains? I see that GPI offers custom ground VVT cams. Would it be better to have the cam ground with a stroker in mind in the future, THEN get a stroker kit or do the cam and stroker at the same time? For a new set up shipped your probably looking at 5 grand for the clearancing and all forged assembled..... Then add on gaskets fluids etc, and heads should net 20HP. If you get a cam with low lift and low duration your leaving a ton of power on the table, sure more torque will come naturally, but doing it all at once you have to budget what you can for what you want. You want the over lap and duration even the stock cam has some, but the stock cams LSA is huge compared to performance cams to make it more drivable along with a low duration and mediocre lift safe for warranty.... If you cam it the idle will be 950 most likely and you will have to torque converter change. If your going to do it do it right don't get some lame cam and then be out $$$$$ for mediocre performance or you will regret it.

3: Since I'm not going super big cube or really aggressive, is just porting the stock intake manifold and throttle body going to be ideal? While stuff like the FAST intake is needed for max effort, big cube engines.

The stock intake is really efficient, that's why others have trouble doing any better with their designs, yes a FAST will do better for larger cubes but still its mediocre for gains and especially anemic on a stock engine even if built. Get a vmax for 150$ exchange or BO white.....

[RaceFuel]

Originally Posted by christianchevell

1: How well do stock LS3/L99 heads flow? Are they "good enough" for a stroker to live with for a while? I read where putting Mast Motorsports Black Label 4.00 bore heads were good for 40 WHP and 10TQ on a moderate cammed, stock displacement L99. Would it be better to put better heads on a stock motor and THEN do a stroker kit, or do a stroker kit with stock heads later?

Not knowing what you have for a car for one with how many miles..... the stroker should gain 50 ft lbs of torque or more over stock cubes and yes you can put better heads on ditch your AFM on the stock engine cam it and be happy for most

the stock heads flow fine, a set of new GMPP heads with the hollow intake valves you don't have with your lower redline in the l99 would be real good For 1200$ from summit like I did.... Then you could more safely raise your rpm limiter in the tune, also you will want new ls3/ls7 lifters and ditch the AFM.... you would be smart to talk to Rhino at GPI or others about a VVT cam.... But even smarter to know you could sell your stock block and buy one as new is $1200 for a bare block add the heads.... Honing the engine can only go .020 over no boring the sleeves are cast into the block making it a little more than many know as the sleeves had to be align honed to start with a .005 over hone is usually what the new block gets for the pistons for a 416/427.
2: On cams...is it necessary to have chop/lope in order to make power? I do love cammed up classic cars, but for these cars I almost think the smooth idle is more attractive. Is it possible to have the best of both worlds with some compromise?

Smooth, stock idle but with significant power gains? I see that GPI offers custom ground VVT cams. Would it be better to have the cam ground with a stroker in mind in the future, THEN get a stroker kit or do the cam and stroker at the same time? For a new set up shipped your probably looking at 5 grand for the clearancing and all forged assembled..... Then add on gaskets fluids etc, and heads should net 20HP. If you get a cam with low lift and low duration your leaving a ton of power on the table, sure more torque will come naturally, but doing it all at once you have to budget what you can for what you want. You want the over lap and duration even the stock cam has some, but the stock cams LSA is huge compared to performance cams to make it more drivable along with a low duration and mediocre lift safe for warranty.... If you cam it the idle will be 950 most likely and you will have to torque converter change. If your going to do it do it right don't get some lame cam and then be out $$$$$ for mediocre performance or you will regret it.

3: Since I'm not going super big cube or really aggressive, is just porting the stock intake manifold and throttle body going to be ideal? While stuff like the FAST intake is needed for max effort, big cube engines.

The stock intake is really efficient, that's why others have trouble doing any better with their designs, yes a FAST will do better for larger cubes but still its mediocre for gains and especially anemic on a stock engine even if built. Get a vmax for 150$ exchange or BO white.....

Okay, thanks! I don't have a Camaro yet, still shopping, just establishing what I want to do and when. All I know is I want a 2SS A6 coupe...beyond that..still shopping.

[JCunningham]

im at 477hp 466ftlbs with a mild cam and headers. LS3 though. A 416 will put you over 500rwhp. add heads, cam, and headers to a 6.2L and you would be at the level you want.

[RaceFuel]

Originally Posted by JCunningham

im at 477hp 466ftlbs with a mild cam and headers. LS3 though. A 416 will put you over 500rwhp. add heads, cam, and headers to a 6.2L and you would be at the level you want.

Thank you!

It's almost starting to sound like a stroker might be a bit of overkill. Plus (I know..I know) I'm sure fuel economy would take a sizable hit.

[CrazyRED]

Originally Posted by RaceFuel

Thank you!

It's almost starting to sound like a stroker might be a bit of overkill. Plus (I know..I know) I'm sure fuel economy would take a sizable hit.

You're question is a good one and has made me curious as well. However, before I even comment... FUEL ECONOMY!!!??? Really? lol Ok, now that is out of my system.

I don't think you can stroke in stages, but you can build your engine in stages. As far as I know you don't have to touch any of the top end to build the lower end. You'll obviously have more gains if you go heads and cam and everything else involved top end but I don't think it's mandatory. If you just want to say you have more displacement can't you just buy a stroker kit. Usually people that want a stroker motor want maximum HP without FI so they beef up the entire engine. I think the stroking first leaves tons of room for future if you decide someday that you do want more power though

[Camaro Dude]

Originally Posted by RaceFuel

My HP goals aren't high, and FI isn't going to be something that happens in the future, nor is nitrous.
In terms of power I'd like to be in the 485WHP range and 440-450 WTQ range..nothing extreme or anything the auto trans can't handle. My background primarily is drag racing but this would not be a serious street/strip car. If I could, with gearing and such, get it to run in the 11.7 ET and trapping around 115 MPH range..I'd be happy to leave it there. If I want more than that I'll be looking into an F-body car and building a serious drag car from that.

I guess boiled down...a weekend fun car that can handle road trips, Friday night drags and still be a good street car. I was hoping by adding cubes I could run a less radical cam and have a broad, usable powerband with a flat torque curve.

The 485wheel you seek as your final number, would this be pre stroked or post?

Originally Posted by JCunningham

im at 477hp 466ftlbs with a mild cam and headers. LS3 though....

"Mild cam" seems to be quite the obscure term used these days on here. I'm seeing variations from 21x/22x to 22x/23x to decribe "mild", lol.

What are your specs?

If I understood correctly, he wants a smooth idle, which means very low -x or most likely -1x of overlap. Some of the listed "mild cams" in some other threads will not provide this, because they are not mild.

He can also forget the 470+PEAK hp with such a cam under 6.2L guise, but, rather a lower peak hp, but with a flatter curve (but will taper off earlier...) and good low end torque, which will make up for it(assuming of course, that's the desired powerband that will used the most for his application).

[Jeff_SS]

I have a 23x/24x cam making 483rw on a mustang dyno.