Warranty Myth

[angryBits]

Disclaimer:
I am not a lawyer or legal advisor, nor do I work for GM or any other manufacturer -- I am a software engineer at Yahoo. This information is based on my experience, conversations with dealers and scouring actual *reputable-ish* sources on the internet (cited below).


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I read a lot of misinformation about car warranty and the warranty being "void". There is rarely such a thing.

Things that "MAY" instantly void your warranty:
- You "race" your car, however the Camaro, Corvette, etc support racing so this doesn't really count?
- Not following proper break-in procedure, though this is very hard to prove and is mostly scare tactics. GM does log data but if you have more than a few thousand miles on your car, any trace of break-in has already been lost as the data logging doesn't go back that far.
- Neglect. Not getting regular service can void a part, but not the entire warranty.
- Off-roading when the vehicle is not intended for that purpose. Probably not an issue for most of us. Though this would not void the engine, but maybe the rest of the drivetrain and suspension.
- Environmental damage such as earthquake or fire. These are not GM's responsibility but your car insurance should help.
- Aftermarket parts "MAY" void other parts but never voids everything. Keep reading for more details.

The warranty is in place to cover manufacturer's defects. If a manufacturer's defect occurs and you have aftermarket parts, this does not mean your warranty will be voided.

First and foremost -- burden of proof falls on the manufacturer. If GM wants to deny a warranty claim they must first prove that the fault is caused by something GM is not responsible for (such as modding or neglect, etc). If you have aftermarket parts then yes you may have a bit more of a battle on your hands but in most cases GM will not deny a legitimate warranty claim that is truly caused by a manufacturer defect, even if your car is heavily modded. The money it saves them is not worth the bad reputation. However dealers (not GM) will generally turn you away because they don't want to spend the man-hours investigating the issue unless they know they'll get reimbursed by GM.

Dealers are generally the source of misinformation. The dealer only gets paid for warranty work if the warranty work is approved by GM. When you bring a modded car into the dealer, they must decide if your car is worth the risk of spending their service guy's time (time=dealer's money). If your car has aftermarket parts, often the dealer will tell you your warranty is void because they don't want to take the risk. They say this because they don't want you to think its their fault and give them a bad review, they'd rather you think its GM's fault. However GM (like most manufacturers) are VERY GOOD about warranty claims once they get past the dealer. GM=Good Cop, Dealer=Bad Cop.

For example, when you "tune" your car and then a connecting rod breaks, the dealer will say warranty is void and send you away. The truth is, your warranty is not void, the dealer is just playing it safe. The dealer does not have the right to void your warranty, but they can refuse to investigate (they're a business and they decided its not worth the risk of losing time/money). If you find a good dealer OR are willing to pay to have it investigated (you take the risk) and the issue is revealed to be a manufacturer defect then GM will most certainly repair it. The trick is to get past the dealer (bad cop). On the other hand, if its an aggressive tune, it is known that you push your car at the drag strip often, and your car is heavily modded and there are very very few reports of broken connecting rods on stock cars, then GM may deny your claim, but this may be because it really is your fault. You can't expect GM to repair something that you really did break, thats not a manufacturer defect. No car is indestructible, they're all designed to take additional abuse but the further you push the envelope the more likely you will cause a failure and that failure is on you, not GM. You should really be grateful GM over-built the car with such a great deal of strength/growth potential not cursing them for denying a claim you caused.

Summary:
1. Warranty cannot be simply "voided", thats dealer misinformation.
2. Dealer is the one that says "void", not GM -- even though the warranty is actually not void.
3. Be willing to accept the fact that the part that broke REALLY did break because of your mods which should be denied.
4. A denied warranty claim by a dealer means nothing. A denied warranty claim by GM is only for that part, not the whole car.
5. Find a good dealer.

Sources:
Edmunds - What Voids Your Warranty
Wikipedia - Magnuson Moss Warranty Act
Words from the mouth of a Chevy Dealer General Manager whom I will not name.




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[Bigtime53]

I think most of us on this board already knows everything you said. I really doubt anyone will post up a dealer who "helped" them get a claim fixed if their car is modified any to keep from jeopardizing the dealer or messing up any other claims they {car owner} might have in the future. I know I would not.

[angryBits]

Originally Posted by Bigtime53

I think most of us on this board already knows everything you said. I really doubt anyone will post up a dealer who "helped" them get a claim fixed if their car is modified any to keep from jeopardizing the dealer or messing up any other claims they {car owner} might have in the future. I know I would not.

I've only summarized the information -- detailed information is available via the links I cited.

I believe many on this forum as well as other forums do not know this information as they often say this or that will void their warranty.

As for listing dealers, "helping" I think you misunderstand. There is no secretive sneaking around going on here. There are good dealers willing to investigate an issue and others that are not. It's not like the dealer has done me a favor by ignoring my mods -- rather, they just get to the bottom of the true issue. There is no "we'll ignore that mod and submit a warranty claim to the dealer for you", thats more misinformation. When there is a warranty claim, GM sends a GM Tech to look the car over, so there is no "ignoring mods" or "favors" its just good dealers willing to investigate.

[BigBlock69RS]

Good info. I agree with you, a lot of misinfo even on this forum about warranties being void if you tune or use aftermarket parts.

In the regional forums there are many threads about who the mod friendly dealers are.

[angryBits]

Originally Posted by BigBlock69RS

Good info. I agree with you, a lot of misinfo even on this forum about warranties being void if you tune or use aftermarket parts.

In the regional forums there are many threads about who the mod friendly dealers are.

Regional forums -- that makes sense as a better place to list them. I'll modify the thread to change the topic to just warranty.

[VTSummit]

Dealer is the bad guy? WTF? I go to bat for customers all the time, many of which are lunkheads who slap everything on their car the internet forums suggest, then expect me to wade through all their crap because something doesn't work. Yes, I sure as hell CAN black flag your entire warranty easily.
Dealers don't get paid to figure out what you f'd up on your car. We get paid to diagnose based on the data provided us by the factory. If your tune or anything else changes parameters, we're going to get bad info during diagnostics and YOU are responsible to pay for that extra time to unscrew your car.
Be honest with me about what happened to the car, what mods are on and lose the attitude and I have your back- spew that BS from the OP and you're not going to enjoy our meeting. It's obvious that the OP has done nothing more than throw together second and third hand info. Go learn warranties and warranty law and get back to me.

[angryBits]

Originally Posted by VTSummit

Dealer is the bad guy? WTF? I go to bat for customers all the time, many of which are lunkheads who slap everything on their car the internet forums suggest, then expect me to wade through all their crap because something doesn't work. Yes, I sure as hell CAN black flag your entire warranty easily.
Dealers don't get paid to figure out what you f'd up on your car. We get paid to diagnose based on the data provided us by the factory. If your tune or anything else changes parameters, we're going to get bad info during diagnostics and YOU are responsible to pay for that extra time to unscrew your car.
Be honest with me about what happened to the car, what mods are on and lose the attitude and I have your back- spew that BS from the OP and you're not going to enjoy our meeting. It's obvious that the OP has done nothing more than throw together second and third hand info. Go learn warranties and warranty law and get back to me.

I'm guessing you skimmed my post and didn't read it all. You're ranting about things I didn't say and alot of what you are saying agree's what what I sad.

There are good dealers and bad dealers. If you're going to bat for the owner then perhaps you're a good dealer.

Be honest with the dealer, let them diagnose the issue and if it's a real manufacturer's defect, then the warranty will likely cover it.

There are absolutely dealerships out there that will pass on doing the legwork because they feel it won't be covered. I was told this directly from a Chevy Dealership General Manager.

[angryBits]

I re-read my post. I'm pretty sure you just read the "summary".

I apologize for the generalization, "dealership is the bad guy, not GM" . If you read the rest of my post you'll understand that I mean that often times it is the dealer that says the warranty is void, when it is actually not void, but rather they don't want to risk the time/money for investigation. You can deny this but like I said above, a Chevy Dealer General Manager told me this.

I also said, not all dealers are bad -- find a good one.

Also -- I didn't just throw some info together, I summarized my findings and posted my citations. You're free to read for yourself if you like.

EDIT: I updated the post to not use the words "dealers are bad". I honestly don't think any dealers are "bad" just many are not willing to investigate.

[angryBits]

Originally Posted by VTSummit

Yes, I sure as hell CAN black flag your entire warranty easily.

Oh and I meant to comment on this as well...

This is bull$#!T. You cannot "black flag" my entire warranty, this is against the law. You are able to include a note about my car along with the claim to GM. Only GM can deny the claim and only GM can terminate the warranty for specific parts. Not even GM can terminate the entire warranty for the entire car unless the car was salvaged, etc.

[backeddy]

Warranty cannot be simply "voided", that's dealer misinformation.

You are seriously misinformed on this, GM can and does wield the "abuse" axe at will and guess where the "abused" word comes from....hint, it's not homeless guy on the corner....it's the dealer you go to for service and GM loves the "abuse" dealers....Just ask my transmission, it will tell you. I also happen to have an $1100 per hour prestigious law firm in SF at my disposal, but even that threat did not make them come off the "abused" axe, it only softened the "voided warranty" talk and they did not/will not even LOOK at my car. So I would not advise you test your theory.

[angryBits]

Originally Posted by backeddy

You are seriously misinformed on this, GM can and does wield the "abuse" axe at will and guess where the "abused" word comes from....hint, it's not homeless guy on the corner....it's the dealer you go to for service and GM loves the "abuse" dealers....Just ask my transmission, it will tell you. I also happen to have an $1100 per hour prestigious law firm in SF at my disposal, but even that threat did not make them come off the "abused" axe, it only softened the "voided warranty" talk and they did not/will not even LOOK at my car. So I would not advise you test your theory.

Yes, its true.
Abuse such as racing, neglect, off-roading, etc.

I suspect there is a lot of room for interpretation on this particular word "abuse".

My understanding is that they cannot simply void the entire warranty due to abuse, only the affected areas. Which may as well be the important ones I suppose.

For the ZL1, though, how is racing considered abuse when we're told to take our ZL1 to the track?

EDIT: I just re-read your post. You're telling me a dealer will say "abuse" ?
That's total BS. A dealer must provide proof of abuse and before the warranty can be "void" GM must send a tech to investigate. You demand to be there during the investigation and demand to see the proof of abuse.
Now... If you were "abusing" then game over, but if you weren't I don't think they can prove that you were.

[BigBlock69RS]

Originally Posted by backeddy

You are seriously misinformed on this, GM can and does wield the "abuse" axe at will and guess where the "abused" word comes from....hint, it's not homeless guy on the corner....it's the dealer you go to for service and GM loves the "abuse" dealers....Just ask my transmission, it will tell you. I also happen to have an $1100 per hour prestigious law firm in SF at my disposal, but even that threat did not make them come off the "abused" axe, it only softened the "voided warranty" talk and they did not/will not even LOOK at my car. So I would not advise you test your theory.

Actually he is perfectly right. Entire warranty can't simply voided for no reason.

My guess is you are leaving out critical info on your trans warranty claim. I know if my trans went and GM didnt replace it under warranty I'd be making a trip to court.

How come you didn't follow up?

Especially with those $1,100 / hr lawyers in your pocket, should have an easy time of it....

[ac223mal]

This post seems to sum it up and to me clears up the misinformation. I don't see a lot of gray area in this. Will a tune keep GM from fixing your power door locks or radio, probably not, but based on this a tune will affect most of your warranty. Im not going to risk it...remember you gotta pay to play.

Originally Posted by Rocky1974

Service Information

2011 Chevrolet Camaro | Camaro VIN F Service Manual | Document ID: 2519676
#09-06-04-026C: Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines Using Tech 2 or Global Diagnostic System (GDS) - (Aug 13, 2010)

Subject:Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines Using Tech 2® or Global Diagnostic System (GDS)

Models:2006-2011 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks (Excluding Saab 9-7X)

2006-2009 HUMMER H2

2006-2010 HUMMER H3
Equipped with V8 Gas Powered Engines Only

Attention:

This bulletin applies to V8 gas powered engines ONLY. For Duramax™ diesel powered engines, refer to the latest version of Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-006G.

This bulletin is being revised to add the 2011 model year. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-06-04-026A (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).
General Motors is identifying an increasing number of engine, transmission and catalytic converter part failures that are the result of non-GM (aftermarket) engine and transmission control calibrations being used.
When alteration to the GM-released engine or transmission control calibrations occurs, it subjects powertrain and driveline components (engine , transmission, transfer case, driveshaft and rear axle) to stresses that were not tested by General Motors. It is because of these unknown stresses, and the potential to alter reliability, durability and emissions performance, that GM has adopted a policy that prevents any UNAUTHORIZED dealer warranty claim submissions to any remaining warranty coverage, to the powertrain and driveline components whenever the presence of a non-GM (aftermarket) calibration is confirmed - even if the non-GM control module calibration is subsequently removed.
Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at time of sale, or subsequently updated by GM. That’s because GM testing and validation matches the calibration to a host of criteria that is essential to assure reliability, durability and emissions performance over the life of the warranty coverage and beyond. Stresses resulting from calibrations different from those tested and released by GM can damage or weaken components, leading to poor performance and or shortened life.
Additionally, non-GM (aftermarket) issued engine control modifications often do not meet the same emissions performance standards as GM issued calibrations. Depending on state statutes, individuals who install engine control module calibrations that put the vehicle outside the parameters of emissions certification standards may be subject to fines and/or penalties.
This bulletin outlines a procedure to identify the presence of non-GM (aftermarket) calibrations. GM recommends performing this check whenever a hard part failure is seen on internal engine or transmission components, or before an engine assembly or transmission assembly is being replaced under warranty. It is also recommended that the engine calibration verification procedure be performed whenever diagnostics indicate that catalytic converter replacement is indicated.
The PQC has a process to confirm the ECM/PCM calibration is GM issued. The PQC will require a picture of the engine calibration verification screen, as outlined in this bulletin, before authorizing any V8 gas powered engine replacement.

If a non-GM calibration is found and verification has taken place through GM, the remaining powertrain and driveline warranty will be blocked and notated in GMVIS and the dealership will be notified. This block prevents any UNAUTHORIZED warranty claim submission.

Connect the Tech 2® to the vehicle. <Go to: Diagnostics and build the vehicle. Select: Powertrain. Select: Engine. *Select: Engine Control Module or PCM. *Select: Module ID Information or I/M Information System if the Module ID Information selection is not available. *If "I/M information System" was selected, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.

⇒If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC (1-800-828-XXXX English or 1-800-503-XXXX French) to obtain the CVN information.

Take a CLEAR digital picture of the Tech 2® Vehicle Information screen showing the engine Calibration IDs and Verification Numbers as shown above. Retain the printout information and the Tech 2® screen photograph with the repair order. Note: All pictures must be sent as a.jpg file.
E-mail a copy of the picture to. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern. Note: The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.

⇒If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).

You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.

Tech 2® Displaying All Zeroes for the Verification Numbers on the Calibration ID and Verification Number Screen

If the Tech 2® that you are using displays all zeroes for the Verification Numbers as shown, then perform the following steps:

Update the Tech 2® with the latest software from TIS2WEB. Turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds. Connect the Tech 2® to the vehicle.

Turn ON the ignition, and build the vehicle. Observe the Tech 2® Calibration ID and Verification Number screen for proper operation.

⇒If the Tech 2® screen still does not display properly, then turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds again. Turn ON the ignition and observe the same screen for proper operation.

Retrieving Calibrations From a Global A Vehicle

This information applies to the 2010 Camaro and is typical of the procedure that will be used on Global A vehicles.

Turn OFF the ignition. Connect the MDI to the Data Link Connector (DLC) of the vehicle. Note: Use the USB port to make the following MDI connection:

Connect the MDI to a PC or laptop that has been downloaded with the GDS application from TIS2WEB. Note: At least one Diagnostic Package must be installed on the PC to perform diagnostics.

If GDS was just installed, select: Add New Diagnostic Package and then select: a Diagnostic Package to download.

Click: On the GDS icon on the PC. The Login Page will appear. Select: A User. The ID Screen will appear. Select: The serial number of the MDI being used. Select: Connect. Verify that the system status is ready by observing for a flashing PC light icon on the MDI. Select: Make, Model and Model Year, in order to build the vehicle. Click: Upload VIN, to allow the VIN to be reported to the PC. At: The Verification step, turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF. Select: Next Action. The Home Page will appear. Select: Next. The Diagnostic Screen will appear. Note: Due to vehicle build, software and RPO variations, GDS may ask for additional information in Step 18.

Select: Engine ID, if prompted. Select: Module Diagnostics. Select: ECM. Select: ID Information. The Diagnostics page will appear.

Note: GDS is capable of displaying up to 10 Calibration History events.

Select: Calibration History from the drop down menu in order to display the following items on the screen: Calibration History Buffer

Number of Calibration History Events Stored

Calibration Part Number History

Calibration Verification Number History

Select: Screenshot. Name and save the file in an appropriate folder. Select : Print, and retain a copy of the screenshot with the repair order. Note: All pictures must be sent as a.jpg file.
E-mail a copy of the screenshot. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern. Note: The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.

⇒If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).

You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.

Warranty Information

• The Dealership Service Management must be involved in any situation that would justify the use of labor operation Z1111.
• Notify the Fixed Operations Manager (FOM) (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada) of the situation.
• All claims will have to be routed to the FOM (WM in Canada) for approval.
• Please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 09-00-89-016, Labor Operation Z1111 - Suspected Tampering or Vehicle Modifications for important information.

For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:
Labor Operation
Description
Labor Time
Z1111
Suspected Tampering or Vehicle Modifications
0.2 hr
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© 2011 General Motors. All rights reserved.

The above came from http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=290879&page=4 post #93.

[backeddy]

I am not hiding anything....The very first lap on Laguna Seca was deemed "abuse" and I was flagged in the system by good ole GMCS right here on this board. My car grinds on every 2-3 shift at high rpms, well above speed limits and it went right from the track to the dealer. They saw balls of rubber on the wheel wells and refused to even look at it because it had been abused..After a layer-up threat, my warranty block was dropped to "abused" and they still to this day refuse to even look at it.