GT 500 vs Zl1 ?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

The math is what it is right? 590 rwhp = %11 drive train loss. 615 rwhp = %7 drive train loss... Now the realistic norm is around 600-603 rwhp = %9 drive train loss at Fords rating of 662HP. I have no clue where Ford got the number 662 but from my perspective it seems a tad low. The evolution of technology with regard to better transmissions, trans fluids, drive shafts, axels, axel lube, etc. would leave me to conclude that modern manual drive train loss should be anywhere from %12 to %15. If %12 loss is applied to the GT500s case of norm rwhp numbers then the car could have easily been rated at 680HP by Ford and nobody would have said a word about being "overrated".

As far as "low hanging fruit" being available to the ZL1, I'm not sure how to draw my conclusion about it. I think when you compare the two manufacturers, Ford clearly made a better effort to give the consumer more of what we envisioned. The stock CAI was a nice effort and no doubt contributes a decent gain vs an enclosed air box. This only satisfies the "content to drive it stock" GT500 owners out there. There are at least 3 different intake tube diameters available along with 3 or 4 different TB diameters too. The stock filter is more restrictive than say an air raid also. Owners are putting down 12rwhp more with just a filter and intake Ford Racing resonator delete tube and no tune obviously. Throw in the Ford racing 65mm Twin blade TB and it's around 25-30rwhp still without a tune.

The Trinity 5.8L power plant has all forged internals. That's why Ford can run 14psi. That's not stressing the motor. 22psi is stressing it... Not sure about the LSA internals but if I were a ZL1 owner it would spook me to run higher psi. I mean it's not an LS9 so...I dunno what's safely left on the table there for the LSA.

The higher drivetrain loss (and weight) of the ZL1 can be attributed to its IRS. Ford on the other hand has perfected the pick-up truck live axle and the 1960's model of aim it in a straight line and shoot. Even so, for 2015 Ford has finally realized it must move forward and has given the Ford camp IRS. Might be why they are so tight lipped about its weight.

The LSA engine in the ZL1 also has forged internals and is running 9 psi compared to the Trinity's 14 psi. The ZR1's titanium rod mill is running 10.8 psi. Again, GM has a higher standard and builds cars that can survive in real competition.

So again, this started with a comment asking why people view the GT500 as not being mod friendly like the ZL1. We all know that more power can be added to any engine. All it takes is money. You're starting with a platform that is already at a very high level of tune. Yes, you can bolt on pulleys and crank your boost to 22 psi but I would be waiting to hear the bottom end of that thing come apart every time I drove it.

The ZL1 has lots of room for power increase and a world class chassis. GM - The Mark of Excellence

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by Thrillz

At the end of the day when i open up my garage i want to see a ZL1 in there. Its the best looking vehicle these 43 year old eyes have ever seen.

Attachment 626259

uuummmmm..okay. You can have your own opinion, but in mine, there are a lot of cars, past and present, that I prefer aesthetically over the 5th Gen Camaro. It does look good, but not the " best I've ever seen."

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

The higher drivetrain loss (and weight) of the ZL1 can be attributed to its IRS. Ford on the other hand has perfected the pick-up truck live axle and the 1960's model of aim it in a straight line and shoot. Even so, for 2015 Ford has finally realized it must move forward and has given the Ford camp IRS. Might be why they are so tight lipped about its weight.

The LSA engine in the ZL1 also has forged internals and is running 9 psi compared to the Trinity's 14 psi. The ZR1's titanium rod mill is running 10.8 psi. Again, GM has a higher standard and builds cars that can survive in real competition.

So again, this started with a comment asking why people view the GT500 as not being mod friendly like the ZL1. We all know that more power can be added to any engine. All it takes is money. You're starting with a platform that is already at a very high level of tune. Yes, you can bolt on pulleys and crank your boost to 22 psi but I would be waiting to hear the bottom end of that thing come apart every time I drove it.

The ZL1 has lots of room for power increase and a world class chassis. GM - The Mark of Excellence

They did do quite well for a live axel. Car handles surprisingly well. While it's can't out handle a ZL1 by any stretch, it's still the best handling car I've ever owned. 2nd best being the Focus ST, 3rd best being the Pontiac G8 GT. The rest aren't even worth mentioning lol.

The LSA has a forged crankshalf, but doesn't it have hypereutectic pistons etc? I'm not 100% sure what pistons the 5.8 Trinity uses, but I could of sworn they were forged.

I'd say you can probably safely run 14psi on a stock LSA and probably 17psi or so on a stock 5.8L trinity engine. Ford went through their lengths to make their engine reliable as well. If I remember correctly, SVT chef engineer said making that power was easy, making it reliable to a point that was acceptable to them was more challenging then making that power.

Basically, they're both awesome engines. LSA is fantastic and there is an enormous amount of meat left on the bone for sure, but there is also room for improvement with the 5.8L engine as well.

[1QwikZ28]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

The higher drivetrain loss (and weight) of the ZL1 can be attributed to its IRS. Ford on the other hand has perfected the pick-up truck live axle and the 1960's model of aim it in a straight line and shoot. Even so, for 2015 Ford has finally realized it must move forward and has given the Ford camp IRS. Might be why they are so tight lipped about its weight.

Not only are you not well versed on the GT500, but on the history of the Mustang as well. Ford introduced IRS to the Cobra back in '99...so quit acting like the Camaro is ahead of the curve. Ford chose to put the SRA back in because that is what its consumers wanted and it helped cut down costs. They perfected the SRA and as you can see, it split road course wins with the ZL1. And yes, the 82hp advantage helped, but the GT500 held its own on the turns too.

Btw, the GT500 may have a bigger blower, but its also down on cubic inches to the LSA/LS9.

[prostcj]

From talking to some Mustang owners, those IRS in the Cobras had a nasty reputation for breaking.
As far as weight, the 5.8 in the GT500 is both larger in size and heavier than the the 6.2 LSA. In fact, the GT500 is some 50 pounds HEAVIER than the ZL1 over the front axle. The extra weight in the ZL1 is in the rear with the larger tires, IRS, and beefy differential.
Any magazine that managed a faster lap in the GT500 all said the same thing, not repeatable. In addition, there were many comments of the GT500 quickly working brakes and oil temperature even with all the additional brake and cooler options.
I'm not saying Ford wasn't smart to build a car that would win at the drags and on any forum where bench racing comes down to throwing numbers around. However, they ended up with a car with 57/43 weight distribution, under tired, under braked, and under cooled for track purposes. It's ultimately a great engine still searching for a great chassis.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

The higher drivetrain loss (and weight) of the ZL1 can be attributed to its IRS. Ford on the other hand has perfected the pick-up truck live axle and the 1960's model of aim it in a straight line and shoot. Even so, for 2015 Ford has finally realized it must move forward and has given the Ford camp IRS. Might be why they are so tight lipped about its weight.

The LSA engine in the ZL1 also has forged internals and is running 9 psi compared to the Trinity's 14 psi. The ZR1's titanium rod mill is running 10.8 psi. Again, GM has a higher standard and builds cars that can survive in real competition.

So again, this started with a comment asking why people view the GT500 as not being mod friendly like the ZL1. We all know that more power can be added to any engine. All it takes is money. You're starting with a platform that is already at a very high level of tune. Yes, you can bolt on pulleys and crank your boost to 22 psi but I would be waiting to hear the bottom end of that thing come apart every time I drove it.

The ZL1 has lots of room for power increase and a world class chassis. GM - The Mark of Excellence

Must I constantly remind the GM community that Ford used IRS in the 03-04 Terminators? To great success vs what GM offered at the time. It's not like Ford are newcomers to the technology...

"Mark of Excellence"? "Higher Standards"? Blah blah blah... Amidst a 2014 recall of nearly 5 million vehicles? OK. Here's the AMERICAN MADE ENDORSEMENT of excellence.

[v8]

Originally Posted by BamBam13

From everything I have seen, the GT500s usually put down right around 600 WHP. I'm not sure why they only have roughly a 10% loss but good on them.

The reason there is very little loss is the solid rear axel everyone complains about. Its much more efficient that the IRS, just doesn't handle as well.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

Must I constantly remind the GM community that Ford used IRS in the 03-04 Terminators? To great success vs what GM offered at the time. It's not like Ford are newcomers to the technology...

"Mark of Excellence"? "Higher Standards"? Blah blah blah... Amidst a 2014 recall of nearly 5 million vehicles? OK. Here's the AMERICAN MADE ENDORSEMENT of excellence.

That was 10 years ago... LOL

[1QwikZ28]

Originally Posted by Crim

That was 10 years ago... LOL

Actually, it was 15 years ago...well before the 5th Gen Camaro was even conceived.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by Crim

That was 10 years ago... LOL

Yep during GMs production of the 2003/04 model year of Camaro. Oh wait...LOL

[cam99]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

Yep during GMs production of the 2003/04 model year of Camaro. Oh wait...LOL

Then we say "yeah well how about the underachieving 1999 recall Cobra's"
then you say " at least mustang has been in constant production since 1964"
then we say" yes the fire breathing 4.6 2v and 3v that were absolute jokes in stock form"
then you say "ford completely screwed gm with the 662 hp gt500 hype during the zl1 launch"
then we say " the gt500 is a huge motor stuffed into a crap old chassis that can't properly handle the power"

blah blah doesn't this ever get old?

[SlitherByU]

Lol. Then I say "the ZL1 is a pig wearing Air Jordan's" Ya it does get old. You guys win. You got the greatest.

[cam99]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

Lol. Then I say "the ZL1 is a pig wearing Air Jordan's" Ya it does get old. You guys win. You got the greatest.

The problem is most people here (myself included) have stated that they like the competition and the products they make or at least have some interest in them, however a select group of fan boys on either side keep the inane bickering going. So keep on slithering there toughness, I'm going to drive my jordan wearing pig

[Blackdevil77]

Camaro vs. Mustang is like Mets vs. Yankees. Both NY teams (both iconic american cars) but they both have such a strong rivalries and each have their own bias followers. I love 'Merica