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Old 08-25-2006, 08:59 PM   #1
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Camaro Diesel Muscle Car?

MARK PHELAN:

GM's new diesel is powerful, efficient

August 25, 2006

General Motors Group Vice President Powertrain Tom Stephens announces Thursday that GM will produce a new light-duty diesel engine that will improve fuel efficiency. (JEFFREY SAUGER/General Motors)

• GM's Duramax engine to get overhaul
If you peered over Charlie Freese's shoulder toward the horizon Thursday, you just might have seen the future of the American muscle car. Or, at least, the powerful and fuel-efficient diesel engine Cadillac needs if it's ever going to be a major player in Europe.

Freese had just revealed the first tantalizing information about General Motors Corp.'s 360-horsepower V8 turbodiesel, which will debut sometime after 2009 -- probably 2010 or 2011 -- in a full-size pickup. Freese is the automaker's executive director of diesel engineering.

Details are scanty, because GM is waiting to receive patents on some of the engine's technology, but Freese promised it would meet emissions requirements in all 50 states when it goes on sale. That's a significant accomplishment. The United States will have the most stringent limits on diesel emissions in the world in 2010.

Other automakers, primarily German brands with a century-plus history of diesel development, have said they expect to be able to meet the requirements, but they don't know how yet.

GM's figured it out, said Freese, but it's not telling anybody until the ink dries on the last digit of the patents.

Here's what the rest of us know now:

• GM promises the engine will use 25% less fuel than a comparable gasoline V8.

• GM developed the engine to match or beat the world's finest diesels on power, fuel economy, sound and vibration. That makes it what Freese calls a premium diesel, like the ones that power most luxury sedans like the Audi A8, BMW 7-series and Mercedes-Benz S-class in Germany.

• The turbodiesel features high-pressure direct fuel injection, dual overhead cams and four valves per cylinder.

• GM developed it for use in a variety of vehicles, not just big pickups.

• The engine fits in several different families of GM vehicles.

• It may be used in vehicles GM sells around the world.

• It fits in the same engine compartment as GM's wildly successful small-block gasoline V8, which powers everything from the Chevrolet Corvette, Impala SS and Silverado full-size pickup to the Cadillac Escalade luxury SUV and Pontiac GTO muscle coupe.

• It will be smaller than the 6.6L Duramax V8 GM already builds for heavy-duty versions of its big trucks.

• Emissions of particulates and oxides of nitrogen will be at least 90% lower than current diesels. Carbon dioxide emissions will be 13% lower than from a comparable gasoline engine.

"Diesels are critical to GM," Freese told me this week. "Globally, diesels are very much in demand," particularly in Europe, where they account for about 50% of new car sales, and South Korea, where 90% of SUVs roll out of the factory under diesel power. He expects diesel sales to grow in other booming markets, particularly China.

Diesels haven't been much of a player in North America. They're used primarily for tractor-trailers, work-oriented heavy-duty pickups and agricultural and construction equipment.

GM was a leader in diesels once, but it lost that position through inattention and eventually sold its Detroit Diesel unit, now owned by DaimlerChrysler.

GM spent the better part of the last decade making up for those mistakes. It builds more than one million diesels a year today. Its model line stretches from a little 1.3-liter diesel that powers small cars in Europe to the 6.6-liter Duramax V8. GM builds the Duramax in Moraine, Ohio, for use in workhorse trucks like the GMC Topkick and Chevrolet Silverado HD. Moraine built about 200,000 Duramax engines last year.

The engine will debut in a pickup because diesel's combination of power and fuel economy is especially appealing in big, heavy vehicles. Diesel engines cost more than gasoline power plants -- nobody will say exactly how much, but $1,000 to $2,000 is a reasonable estimate -- but owners get a return on their investment much quicker when a diesel is in vehicles with low fuel economy, such as pickups and SUVs.

The new V8 will plug a gap in GM's diesel lineup between the 3.0-liter V6 it sells in European cars like the Opel Vectra and the Silverado HD pickup's stump-pulling 6.6-liter Duramax.

GM's not saying where the new V8 will come from, but you can bet production will be somewhere in North America and it will be used in high-end vehicles.

That's why Freese is so adamant when he calls it a premium diesel.

"We benchmarked it against the finest diesels in the world," including the smooth and powerful ones in top luxury sedans like the Mercedes S-class and Audi A8, he said.

"Our engine needs to be the best," Freese said. "The alternative for North American buyers is a gasoline engine. The owners of the vehicles that will use the engine have never been exposed to a diesel, so the noise and vibration need to approach the levels of gasoline engines."

And that opens the door for diesel muscle cars and Cadillacs.

Without a smooth and powerful diesel for cars like its STS sedan, Cadillac is doomed to remain a marginal player in Europe, brand general manager Jim Taylor told me earlier this week.

And imagine a 2010 Chevrolet Camaro with a 360-horsepower V8 and highway fuel economy over 40 m.p.g. That's my guess on fuel economy, but it's not unreasonable. It would make the nouveau muscle car appealing to many more buyers, and give GM's corporate average fuel economy figures a boost from an unexpected corner.

Freese told me the technologies in the V8 may be used in other engines, and I know GM's Saturn brand is looking for fuel-efficient, low-emissions diesels for some of its upcoming models.

The pickup truck is the start, but keep your eyes on the horizon. There's more coming.

Contact MARK PHELAN at 313-222-6731 or phelan@freepress.com
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Old 08-26-2006, 12:55 AM   #2
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Now I can promise all of you that if that really happens w/ the 2010 Camaro and is an option, I would hold off in a heartbeat. Come on now, 40 MPG'S???
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Old 08-29-2006, 09:34 AM   #3
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its not 2010 its coming in end of 2008-09 and 40 mpg isnt that hard to achieve any more. and diesel does get better gas mileage than regular gas. mercedes has it in there e class and you can choose which type you want diesel or regular and the diesel gets like 6-10 mpg better than the regular v6 in it
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Old 08-29-2006, 04:52 PM   #4
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GM Plans New V8 Diesel

By RICHARD TRUETT | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

AutoWeek | Published 08/28/06, 9:44 am et

DETROIT - The diesel engine is about to get a starring role at General Motors.

GM is building a new V-8 diesel for light-duty trucks and SUVs that is expected to meet Federal Tier 2 and California emissions standards and be available in all 50 states as early as 2010.

At a press event last week at GM's Milford, Mich., proving grounds, Charles Freese, GM's executive director of diesel engineering, said the new engine should boost the fuel economy gain of a vehicle such as the Chevrolet Tahoe by about 25 percent. That would enable the 5,000-pound SUV to get around 26 mpg on the highway.

Freese would not give the displacement of the engine. He did say it is larger than the 3.0-liter but smaller than the current 6.6-liter Duramax diesel used in heavy-duty versions of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups.

The new engine is designed to fit in the space of GM's current 5.3-liter gasoline engine. Engineers installed an early hand-built prototype of the engine in a blue Buick Rainier SUV and let journalists test it on the proving grounds.

There was no way to tell the engine was a diesel unless you put your ear near the hood. It ran as smoothly and quietly as a gasoline engine. The test engine is rated at 330 hp and develops 620 pounds-feet of torque.

The engine has double-overhead cams and four-valves per cylinder and uses a selective catalytic reduction or urea injection system to clean the exhaust.
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Old 08-30-2006, 12:30 PM   #5
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There was no way to tell the engine was a diesel unless you put your ear near the hood. It ran as smoothly and quietly as a gasoline engine. The test engine is rated at 330 hp and develops 620 pounds-feet of torque.
. i heard a benz diesel and you cant even tell it is a diesel its so quiet. theres no way they will put a diesel in the camaro although a turbo would be nice . theres going to be a new ls motor by the time they sell these cars. gm has something u there sleeves as to why they are waiting so long for this. theyll probably have a new motor out, whole new platform for it, ford will be redesigning the mustang, dodge will bring out the challanger. they know what there doing. i wouldnt be surprised if they get about 420hp out of a new motor for the camaro
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Old 09-15-2006, 09:48 PM   #6
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Now I can promise all of you that if that really happens w/ the 2010 Camaro and is an option, I would hold off in a heartbeat. Come on now, 40 MPG'S???
40 MPG! - not the way I drive
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Old 12-15-2006, 03:16 PM   #7
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Diesel Camaro

From the February '07 'Popular Hot Rodding'

It will be years until the new Camaro is on the streets, but thats no reason for pundits to resist speculating on every aspect of the future muscle car. Recently, Detroit Free Press columnist Mark Phelan discussed the possibility of a diesel powered Camaro. As he stated online, "Imagine a 2010 Camaro with a 360HP V8 and highway fuel economy over 40 mpg. ......"We don't see this happening but its interesting to imagine."

I don't know. A diesel powered Camaro??? It just doesn't sound right.
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Old 12-15-2006, 03:48 PM   #8
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U.S. buyers are still not ready for diesel powered passenger cars...
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Old 12-15-2006, 04:40 PM   #9
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http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149
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Old 12-16-2006, 12:06 AM   #10
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Yeah, it would be wierd. But, the technology is there, GM is waiting on the patent, and it could be a possibility. If it got 40 mpg's, I'd consider it depending on how many gas stations are carrying diesel by then. And...as long as it was quiet like the other higher end diesels around right now.
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:18 AM   #11
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Hi guys, I'm a new memeber from Italy. I love the states, cars...and so MUSCLES.

Please never think to a Diesel camaro!! In europe we're full of diesel powered sport coupe as bmw 3cd, mercedes, audi...etc! Also very luxury cars have a diesel engines! It's so sad...

The real american spirit is only inside a gas V8...that's an icon, I cant imagine a diesel muscle!
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:37 AM   #12
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BigBlockWanted I can't agree withyou more I love my Gas powered V8's. GM should never do away w/them they will ruin the Camaro if they do they people like to here the rumble of the V8 under the hood that has always been the Camaro, and that is the way it should stay.
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Old 12-25-2006, 05:22 PM   #13
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Please... no diesel in the Camaro. It's blasphemy.

Rumble. Not rattle.
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Old 01-17-2009, 03:23 AM   #14
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this could use be a possibility for future model years, so why not look back into it. the new Duramax 4.5L turbo-diesel is proving to be pretty impressive. completely innovative intake & exhaust designs along with a variable-geometry turbo combine to make 310hp and 520lb-ft of torque! all that with an estimated 25% higher fuel efficiency than a similarly-powered gas engine. i would jump at this in a heartbeat!
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:38 AM   #15
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... better mileage and a boatload of torque !! The new diesels are also cleaner and much more quiet. Think Audi R10 LMP1 racer !! ... sweet !!
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:50 AM   #16
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I'd totally rock it. Plus... 620 ft lbs? or even just 510 like the lower figure? Imagine the feel on your backside when you punch the throttle.
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:41 AM   #17
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BMW has been opening some eyes with their new 3 series diesel, as apparently it outperforms the NA gas 3 series and almost matches the turbo'd gas 3 series.

I would LOVE to see a big diesel if it's THAT efficient..... but it would HAVE to get 40 MPG to make it worth while, as diesel is more expensive than gas.
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:43 AM   #18
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There's just something about those 3.5" intake ports that make me grunt like a cave man
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:18 AM   #19
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I have an 02 3500 Duramax with an Edge Performance chip, I can tell you even in an 8,000 pound truck 425 HP and 880 lbs of torque is amazing to drive. I get 18 MPG driving to work and back in 50/50 city/highway driving just 22 miles a day. I am sure they could get 40 MPG easy. With just the chip the 6.6 goes from 300 HP to 425 HP, I just wonder how much Edge will get out of the new Duramax?

Below is the link to the 6.6 chip;
http://www.edgeproducts.com/product.php?pk=49&pvk=131
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:42 AM   #20
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There is already a boatload of performance aftermarket stuff for the diesels also! There are some that are VERY VERY fast. I personally raced a silverado quad cab 4x4 that ran high 12's low 13's at the track...if a vehicle that big is THAT FAST, your talking 11's in a camaro...it would be different for sure, but I think it would fly as a business model.
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:17 AM   #21
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There's just something about those 3.5" intake ports that make me grunt like a cave man
I know exactly what you mean.

I would like to see GM continue to work on this technology before placing it in the Camaro. I don't want to see a power drop unless GM offers stage kits to get buyers back ahead of the competition.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:52 PM   #22
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Wait a second guys, while a 360hp 620lb of tq diesel will be good for straight line speed. Diesels are terrible for going around corners, They wieght ALOT heavier than a chevy small block.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:32 PM   #23
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Wait a second guys, while a 360hp 620lb of tq diesel will be good for straight line speed. Diesels are terrible for going around corners, They wieght ALOT heavier than a chevy small block.
you do realize the new diesel from GM will fit in the same engine bay as a typical sbc?

it would be just like a cast iron motor.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:33 PM   #24
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also.... see this thread.


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ghlight=diesel
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Read that link that Spike posted, it'll tell you everything you need to know.
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:25 PM   #25
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But like I said Diesels engines are VERY heavy, not exactly ideal for going around corners with more wieght on the front wheels. Diesels are going to get pretty expensive aswell inorder to pass stricter emissions. A better way to go would be to twin turbo charge the 3.6 304 hp V6!! in a similar fashion of what ford is doing with the mustang (ecoboost), A twin turbo 3.6 V6 will deliever good fuel economy, gobs of torque and MORE hp than any desiel. Not too mention it will wiegh MUCH lighter.
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