good breakdown of oils - Page 2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

bballr4567 · 08-20-2013, 09:03 PM

Then your engine probably isn't run as hard as others. I've seen enough UOAs from other LFX engines to know that if they are worked hard you should skip M1. If it's working for you than its good and don't change it. I'm just saying that DI engines are much harder on oils than regular injection engines.

What was your fuel percentage and TBN of your UOA?

JohnnyBfromPeoria · 08-20-2013, 11:53 PM

Fuel percentage was <0.5, TBN was 1.5.

I made a mistake on my earlier post. The report was done on a sample I ran after 9,055 miles and Blackstone's recommendation was to try 10,000 miles the next time.

John B.

bballr4567 · 08-21-2013, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBfromPeoria

Fuel percentage was <0.5, TBN was 1.5.

I made a mistake on my earlier post. The report was done on a sample I ran after 9,055 miles and Blackstone's recommendation was to try 10,000 miles the next time.

John B.

That is dang good for M1 with a DI engine. Id certainly keep what you are doing. Its quite honestly the best I have ever seen.

I just did a bunch of back reading on BITOG and lots of the regular gas engines are still doing good with M1. DI engines are very hit or miss. It seems like operation makes a lot of difference but I saw some with fuel in the 3.3-4% range with like 5-7k OCIs. Not good at all.

LS3 Handler · 08-21-2013, 01:03 AM

JohnnyBfromPeoria diesels do run higher compression than gasoline as the heat that is generated from compressing the air is what ignites the fuel. I believe most new common rail injection diesels run about 18 to 1 with injection pressures as high as 25k psi. I worked on an old 6.2 gm diesel and discovered it had a 21 to 1 compression ratio. But also gasoline is more a solvent where diesel is closer to lubricant. But most diesels are direct injection sence around the 60's.

67motorcat · 08-21-2013, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballr4567

Its actually quite simple. A regular injection usually has a PSI of 40-80. A DI engine has a PSI of up to 15,000. The fuel in a regular injection engine does not become atomized by the pressure so its in much bigger molecules. In a DI engine, the fuel becomes atomized and the oil literally absorbs the fuel. Think of it as like boulders vs sand. Of course, that is the small breakdown of it. If you dont believe me do your own research. If you think that a DI engine doesnt make that much difference in an oil then you really need to read and read some more. Its a very different animal in a lot of ways.

Look on BITOG.com for DI engines that use M1 oils. It becomes diluted in as little as 3500 miles and quickly falls down the viscosity rating chart. There are some UOAs that show the oil has more than 2% fuel in it. Not good at all.

I can understand what you are saying to some degree.I don't agree that Mobil 1 would perform any less than the competition if it becomes diluted.And if so what would perform better?

I just can't imagine GM and other manufactures of these new high tech DI engines would be willing to honor warranties for 100K miles, or more with recommended Oil changes way beyond the alleged "breakdown" point of the oils available today.Especially when the DIC Oil life monitor can sometimes go up to 10K miles or more. People use the DIC,I dont',But GM knows alot of people do.

Diesel oils contain way to much sulfur,although that amount has been dropping,to be safe for Cats and O2 sensors.

I would think sticking with the 5K routine oils changes would be fine for long engine life.And if this in fact becomes a problem,Oil manufactures will be forced to make DI specific oils.....could you imagine the confusion the public would have

Carmine SS · 08-21-2013, 08:12 AM

This is interesting to consider, given I am dealing with an occasional dry lifter on cold starts. I am using the recommended Mobil 1 but have heard the Penn Ultra recommended by drivers. I may consider switching to it if it is a better protection for a better price.

bballr4567 · 08-21-2013, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 67motorcat

I can understand what you are saying to some degree.I don't agree that Mobil 1 would perform any less than the competition if it becomes diluted.And if so what would perform better?

I just can't imagine GM and other manufactures of these new high tech DI engines would be willing to honor warranties for 100K miles, or more with recommended Oil changes way beyond the alleged "breakdown" point of the oils available today.Especially when the DIC Oil life monitor can sometimes go up to 10K miles or more. People use the DIC,I dont',But GM knows alot of people do.

Diesel oils contain way to much sulfur,although that amount has been dropping,to be safe for Cats and O2 sensors.

I would think sticking with the 5K routine oils changes would be fine for long engine life.And if this in fact becomes a problem,Oil manufactures will be forced to make DI specific oils.....could you imagine the confusion the public would have

You did hear about the recall in the Lambda (Acadia, Traverse and Enclave) vehicles with the 3.6 right? Because of the severe duty that the oil goes through they were seeing lots of timing chain failures and stretching (that causes an CEL and limp mode) with the original OLM logarithm. GM changed it so that the OLM would come on up to 25% sooner in those vehicles. Same thing with the DI I4s.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...news/130409904

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/8594...-v6/index.html

In other words, GM thought that the oils would protect better than they do in DI engines. Its not only GM though. Porsche and VW have had problems with DI turbo engines. Same thing with the Ecoboost.

Mouse6.2 · 08-21-2013, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballr4567

You did hear about the recall in the Lambda (Acadia, Traverse and Enclave) vehicles with the 3.6 right? Because of the severe duty that the oil goes through they were seeing lots of timing chain failures and stretching (that causes an CEL and limp mode) with the original OLM logarithm. GM changed it so that the OLM would come on up to 25% sooner in those vehicles. Same thing with the DI I4s.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...news/130409904

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/8594...-v6/index.html

In other words, GM thought that the oils would protect better than they do in DI engines. Its not only GM though. Porsche and VW have had problems with DI turbo engines. Same thing with the Ecoboost.

Our 2011 Acadia OLM is the same every time at 10% and 5k on the odometer, no matter what our driving style. I think it is set up to be that way so that the mileage will not go past 5k and the OLM is down to 10% as well.

GbrilliantQ · 08-21-2013, 01:46 PM

Look at how low Royal Purple scored....

67motorcat · 08-22-2013, 05:26 PM

I still don't see any definitive evidence or cause for these timing chain failures by GM or anyone due to Oil dilution.
To me if this was really a serious issue,bearing babbit and cylinder wear would be the first to rear it's ugly head.

Said timing chains are just a squirt/splashed lubricated part anyway ,not subjected to high pressure wear like bearings and cylinder walls.

I'm just not buying the theory that timing chain issue's are a direct result of the Direct injection of fuel into the cylinders.

I would say timing chains in these new smaller cube motors spinning unheard of RPM just a few years ago in stock form,simply need a more robust chain and time will tell for sure.I would bet a dollar GM will revise these chains in the near future.

GM is not saying exactly what is causing it in the most Corporate Savy way.....only requesting more frequent Oil changes as a band aid.

My opinion of course....

bballr4567 · 08-22-2013, 06:16 PM

They have revised the chain twice and the oil squirters three times.

If lubrication has no factor in it then I'll throw this out there.

Have you ever rode a bicycle that had a frozen or stretched chain? Yea, its impossible to pedal correctly because its either skipping a tooth or catching. The reason they freeze or stretch? Freezing is due to no lubrication. Stretching is due to wear but wear is greatly impacted by lubrication.

If you dont believe me then do the research yourself when you purchase a direct injection vehicle. I've lived with one for almost two years so I know how they are and how they act.

67motorcat · 08-22-2013, 07:28 PM

I'm not saying I don't believe you and your experience.

I'm saying there is no actual concrete proof as of now by GM or anyone else showing this issue is a "direct" result of Direct Injection.

I don't think either a bicycle chain is a valid analogy due to it being exposed to the atmosphere all the time,unless possibly the vehicle has been in storage for an extremely long time.

This definitely is a great discussion given that fact that probably all future engines will be Direct Injection and the current issue seems to be a growing pain for sure.

bballr4567 · 08-22-2013, 07:38 PM

See, the issue with a bike chain is that with proper lubrication they can last for 40-50k miles. Most dont because they change them when they get a new rear cassette.

Im not saying the timing chain issue is a direct cause from direct injection but GM knows that having the OCIs going 10k miles in a 3.6 that sees a lot of work is not a good thing.

Mouse6.2 · 08-22-2013, 08:47 PM

The timing chain issues have been going on way before direct injection. Just visit the Acadia forum and read all about them.

08-21-2013, 08:12 AM	#20
Carmine SS Just Livin' the Dream Drives: 2011 CAMARO 2SS/RS Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: WARREN, MICHIGAN Posts: 54 View My Garage	This is interesting to consider, given I am dealing with an occasional dry lifter on cold starts. I am using the recommended Mobil 1 but have heard the Penn Ultra recommended by drivers. I may consider switching to it if it is a better protection for a better price. __________________ I'm old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway.

08-22-2013, 05:26 PM	#24
67motorcat Blown Cool Breeze Drives: 2011 Black on Black 2SS M6 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pinehurst NC Posts: 1,027 View My Garage	I still don't see any definitive evidence or cause for these timing chain failures by GM or anyone due to Oil dilution. To me if this was really a serious issue,bearing babbit and cylinder wear would be the first to rear it's ugly head. Said timing chains are just a squirt/splashed lubricated part anyway ,not subjected to high pressure wear like bearings and cylinder walls. I'm just not buying the theory that timing chain issue's are a direct result of the Direct injection of fuel into the cylinders. I would say timing chains in these new smaller cube motors spinning unheard of RPM just a few years ago in stock form,simply need a more robust chain and time will tell for sure.I would bet a dollar GM will revise these chains in the near future. GM is not saying exactly what is causing it in the most Corporate Savy way.....only requesting more frequent Oil changes as a band aid. My opinion of course.... __________________ 2011 Black on Black 2SS M6 Had a 2010 IBM 2SS M6 Enjoy life.Think of all the women on the Titanic who passed up dessert.

08-22-2013, 07:28 PM	#26
67motorcat Blown Cool Breeze Drives: 2011 Black on Black 2SS M6 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pinehurst NC Posts: 1,027 View My Garage	I'm not saying I don't believe you and your experience. I'm saying there is no actual concrete proof as of now by GM or anyone else showing this issue is a "direct" result of Direct Injection. I don't think either a bicycle chain is a valid analogy due to it being exposed to the atmosphere all the time,unless possibly the vehicle has been in storage for an extremely long time. This definitely is a great discussion given that fact that probably all future engines will be Direct Injection and the current issue seems to be a growing pain for sure. __________________ 2011 Black on Black 2SS M6 Had a 2010 IBM 2SS M6 Enjoy life.Think of all the women on the Titanic who passed up dessert.

08-20-2013, 09:03 PM	#15
bballr4567 Drives: 2016 Camaro 1LT M6 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 1,256	Then your engine probably isn't run as hard as others. I've seen enough UOAs from other LFX engines to know that if they are worked hard you should skip M1. If it's working for you than its good and don't change it. I'm just saying that DI engines are much harder on oils than regular injection engines. What was your fuel percentage and TBN of your UOA?

08-20-2013, 11:53 PM	#16
JohnnyBfromPeoria Drives: 2012 LS M6, Black Join Date: May 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 2,045	Fuel percentage was <0.5, TBN was 1.5. I made a mistake on my earlier post. The report was done on a sample I ran after 9,055 miles and Blackstone's recommendation was to try 10,000 miles the next time. John B.

08-21-2013, 01:03 AM	#18
LS3 Handler I love the LS3 Drives: 2010 IOM 2SS Manual Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Washington NC Posts: 361	JohnnyBfromPeoria diesels do run higher compression than gasoline as the heat that is generated from compressing the air is what ignites the fuel. I believe most new common rail injection diesels run about 18 to 1 with injection pressures as high as 25k psi. I worked on an old 6.2 gm diesel and discovered it had a 21 to 1 compression ratio. But also gasoline is more a solvent where diesel is closer to lubricant. But most diesels are direct injection sence around the 60's.

08-21-2013, 01:46 PM	#23
GbrilliantQ ¡ʇuɐıןןıɹq Drives: 2011 Camaro IOM 2SS/RS Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Decatur, Illinois Posts: 2,600	Look at how low Royal Purple scored....

08-22-2013, 06:16 PM	#25
bballr4567 Drives: 2016 Camaro 1LT M6 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 1,256	They have revised the chain twice and the oil squirters three times. If lubrication has no factor in it then I'll throw this out there. Have you ever rode a bicycle that had a frozen or stretched chain? Yea, its impossible to pedal correctly because its either skipping a tooth or catching. The reason they freeze or stretch? Freezing is due to no lubrication. Stretching is due to wear but wear is greatly impacted by lubrication. If you dont believe me then do the research yourself when you purchase a direct injection vehicle. I've lived with one for almost two years so I know how they are and how they act.

08-22-2013, 07:38 PM	#27
bballr4567 Drives: 2016 Camaro 1LT M6 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 1,256	See, the issue with a bike chain is that with proper lubrication they can last for 40-50k miles. Most dont because they change them when they get a new rear cassette. Im not saying the timing chain issue is a direct cause from direct injection but GM knows that having the OCIs going 10k miles in a 3.6 that sees a lot of work is not a good thing.

08-22-2013, 08:47 PM	#28
Mouse6.2 Drives: 2013 2SS/RS M6 NPP Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 340	The timing chain issues have been going on way before direct injection. Just visit the Acadia forum and read all about them.