Nitrous, Methanol, continuous cooling

[Supercharged SS]

Iv'e been told the same thing by a few experts. That is why you add the water to make it water/meth. Because the water is better at the cooling part.

[632]

Originally Posted by Supercharged SS

So how much more strain will a 50 shot put on the engine? Seeing that I'm already cranking out 18 psi I'm not looking to have it go boom anytime soon! Honestly I should leave the car the f*#k alone. It's goes plenty fast now and when the fall comes I'll see my "9". But that little red guy on my shoulder keeps asking me whats next!!!!! Maybe that little red guy is Ted.

WHAT?
your gonna give up that easy and let me run the first 9 second 1/4?
c'mon, put the nitrous on and get that 9 now!

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by 632

WHAT?
your gonna give up that easy and let me run the first 9 second 1/4?
c'mon, put the nitrous on and get that 9 now!

I think he's got 9 secs without a shot...just has to get the right day and right conditions.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by hypurone

I beg to differ. Water has up to 6 times the capability of latent heat absorption than methanol does (depending on who you talk to, IE: Aquamist vs Coolingmist etc). This is directly proportional to how finely you can atomize the water as it is injected.

A brief excerpt from the Aquamist site:

Water to Fuel ratio

We've seen that excess fuel is traditionally used as in-cylinder coolant. We've also seen here that water is a much better alternative for this purpose, since its latent heat is 6 -7 times higher than fuel (energy absorbed as the tiny droplets evaporate)

Latent heat of fuel = 350KJ/kg
Latent heat of Methanol = 1109 Kg/kJ
Latent heat of water = 2256KJ/kg

PLUS, it does not ADD heat to the cylinder burn as methanol would (because meth is a fuel remember) when it reaches the cylinders. PLUS it will remove any carbon build-up on the valves and piston faces as it is converted to steam by its heat absorption... PLUS it is FREE!

Just adding my FHE with water injection.

I thought he was saying the nitrous cools better than water? I don't know if that's true or not, but you are 100% correct that water cools better than methanol. Like mentioned below you, the mix is where it is at...you get fuel and cooling.

[Graham@N]

Originally Posted by SC2150

Just opt for the remote bottle opener and it is a flip of the switch. Arming is also just a switch. Very common and you will be amazed a what a simple 50 shot will do. BUT don't scrimp!!! No cutting corners with spray.

WOT switch, window switch, etc. are all safety options that are a must.

100%.

Originally Posted by Supercharged SS

So how much more strain will a 50 shot put on the engine? Seeing that I'm already cranking out 18 psi I'm not looking to have it go boom anytime soon! Honestly I should leave the car the f*#k alone. It's goes plenty fast now and when the fall comes I'll see my "9". But that little red guy on my shoulder keeps asking me whats next!!!!! Maybe that little red guy is Ted.

In your case probably close to none when you figure the drop in IAT. You are going to be looking at a gain of 70-90hp probably from a 50hp shot. Ill answer your PM today and we can get a little communication going.

[Graham@N]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

I thought he was saying the nitrous cools better than water? I don't know if that's true or not, but you are 100% correct that water cools better than methanol. Like mentioned below you, the mix is where it is at...you get fuel and cooling.

Not even close of the drop in IAT from water vs a nitrous system. Water can still be used very effectively even in conjunction with nitrous. But for solving IAT, nothing does that like 50-150hp worth of nitrous.

[mpiper]

So, Graham!

Lets take a look at what a small Nitrous system would be. Let's suppose I want to be able to remove for dealer visits, so the simpler the better.

Looking around at your website, here's some items that look good, but I'm wondering what the best combo of them would be. So here's my starter "shopping list"
- Dry ring spray that would fit a Roto-Fab V6 intake/filter
- Jetting for 50+ HP shot
- Window switch starting at 1850 rpm through 6,800
- TPS switch set to engage at 80% throttle
- related hardware
- smallest bottle to leave trunk as usable as possible
- remote bottle opener

Now, that's not what a full on drag racer would do, but they shoot a much larger shot, so the starting RPM and the TPS would both be higher. I'm hoping a small 50-60 shot would be usable in the above situation so it works as an assist without requiring all-or-none on the throttle.

Is that a realistic setup on a daily driven street car? What would you change to make it perfect as a "heat soak removal" kit. Since this is NOT a race kit, could some of the items be left off? what would the bare bone, but still complete kit look like? Think budget, not cutting edge (if there is such a thing in mod-world).

I know you can't post pricing, so right now we're just looking at a solution to a problem, not a kit for sale.

SC2150, (or anyone else) if you have any thoughts, chime in!

[Graham@N]

We can certianly work around a budget, but, the remote opener and Progressive controller you will want for the task and fairly pricey add on's when thinking budget.

I can work something up for you. Let me get you something lined out with some good pics as well for those reading with the same idea. Ill get after this in the AM. Long day I'm slacking a little. I get where your going with on the idea and I can make it happen.

[mpiper]

I understand slacking after a long day. Right now I'm at around 50 hours and still have tomorrow.

Take it easy and we'll check in tomorrow.

[mpiper]

By the way, SC2150,

You mentioned the super chiller from the V8 section could. be adapted for NA vehicles. When I pm'd the guy selling them ( he had the G8), he said they were only for SC applications. Well, i went back to the start of that thread and it seems YOU were the start of that thread and the main developer. So, let me ask you, " what would be involved in developing an NA version, since the SC version cools the intercooler, and a NA doesn't have one, how would it cool the intake charge?

[Ir0nM4n]

[SC2150]

Originally Posted by mpiper

By the way, SC2150,

You mentioned the super chiller from the V8 section could. be adapted for NA vehicles. When I pm'd the guy selling them ( he had the G8), he said they were only for SC applications. Well, i went back to the start of that thread and it seems YOU were the start of that thread and the main developer. So, let me ask you, " what would be involved in developing an NA version, since the SC version cools the intercooler, and a NA doesn't have one, how would it cool the intake charge?

We can use the same workings but cool a pass-through intercooler/heat exchanger so any air drawn past would be cooled just as the intercooler under a maggie/KB/Whipple does. Since it is not mounted right
on top of the engine valley it would not heat soak near as much as a SC one does....and would lower IAT's even more in theory. Now, the power gains would not be as great as a forced induction application as the compressing of the air charge itself is a great heat generator, but it would be similar to running in the cold months and cold air is what these motors love. Cost would be similar but a bit higher due to the need for a intercooler/heat exchanger.

[skip_168]

Originally Posted by mpiper

2. Skip, I get the details you provided, but I'm a bit confused. What is the overall message? Are you for or against the idea? Or saying it only benefits FI? Sorry, just a bit slow today I guess.

My point was, if you want more power, you need more O2. I mean, cooling the air charge will get you more O2, but from the stand point of dollars to HP, NOS is the most bang for your buck, (pardon the pun)...

cooling the air charge gets more done with forced induction, but might not be worth the time or money on a naturally aspirated engine, as opposed to a bolt-on NOS kit.

NOS is bolt on, flick the switch and off you go, more O2, more fuel, and more power... The only drawback is keeping the airfuel ratio from going to lean and blow-torching your pistons.

I don't have too much experience with NOS, it was waaaay to dangerous to use on an air cooled porsche engine... So all the latest NOS stuff is new to me.. I'm learning from this thread as well...

Originally Posted by hypurone

I beg to differ. Water has up to 6 times the capability of latent heat absorption than methanol does (depending on who you talk to, IE: Aquamist vs Coolingmist etc). This is directly proportional to how finely you can atomize the water as it is injected.

A brief excerpt from the Aquamist site:

Water to Fuel ratio

We've seen that excess fuel is traditionally used as in-cylinder coolant. We've also seen here that water is a much better alternative for this purpose, since its latent heat is 6 -7 times higher than fuel (energy absorbed as the tiny droplets evaporate)

Latent heat of fuel = 350KJ/kg
Latent heat of Methanol = 1109 Kg/kJ
Latent heat of water = 2256KJ/kg

PLUS, it does not ADD heat to the cylinder burn as methanol would (because meth is a fuel remember) when it reaches the cylinders. PLUS it will remove any carbon build-up on the valves and piston faces as it is converted to steam by its heat absorption... PLUS it is FREE!

Just adding my FHE with water injection.

Yes I was wrong there, I always get that ass-backwards because of the lower boiling point of the methanol.

We used water injection on the turbo porsches (street cars anyway). It was just so much easier to work with...

and yes, we were the old school mechanics streaming water into the intake to blow off all the carbon build up on the piston...

[mpiper]

Originally Posted by SC2150

We can use the same workings but cool a pass-through intercooler/heat exchanger so any air drawn past would be cooled just as the intercooler under a maggie/KB/Whipple does. Since it is not mounted right
on top of the engine valley it would not heat soak near as much as a SC one does....and would lower IAT's even more in theory. Now, the power gains would not be as great as a forced induction application as the compressing of the air charge itself is a great heat generator, but it would be similar to running in the cold months and cold air is what these motors love. Cost would be similar but a bit higher due to the need for a intercooler/heat exchanger.

So, if I understand this right, we would have a Freon filled intercooler under the airbox so as air is pulled up into the air filter, it is cooled? Or are we cutting out a section of the air tube and inserting the intercooler there? Or did I get this bass ackwards?

Would you estimate this gain using the formula of X degrees = Y hp change? So dropping from 110 to say 70 would be a drop of 40 degrees, so 16 - 20 hp? Or am I way off base?