complaints about lack of power....

[CGM2SSRS]

Originally Posted by jpgoins

Amen, brother. You hit the nail on the head.

As far as the previous comment, the only thing I'd have to disagree on is that when you unrestrict air passage, you have to have more fuel to compensate. That being said, the increase in efficiency produced by uncorking the air pump (good analogy, BTW) would offset that some.

Agreed. UNLESS, you could manage to keep the throttle in the,"sweet zone"
And that just ain't what it's all about.

[tony_c]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry, but I had to respond to the two points I bolded.

First, GM is NOT trying to deny claims. GM takes steps to make sure that the dealer is actually making the repairs, but if you have a problem DO NOT THINK FOR A MINUTE GM will try to not have the claim paid or put your dealer in situation where it is out of pocket. Now if the dealer fixes something on your car that isn't wrong and trys to charge GM for it that is another story.

Second, there is a reason why the engine comes from the factory as it is. It is a very well balanced calibration for power, fuel economy and emissions. It is done so that an engine starts and performs well in International Fall MN in January and Phoenix AZ in July. It is also done to ensure durability and reliability.

These aftermarket "tunes" aren't magic. GM could do this as well if it met FE and was durable. It's the same as putting on an aftermarket exhaust. GM could easily do that for you but it would violate Federal requirements and not be salable.

Will your engine blow up if you put in a "tune", no. Will it be equally durable, no way. Adding torque to a drive train increases the loads. It is that simple. Why do you think the automatic trans in the CTS-V is different than the one in the Camaro.

So yes, these guys can sell you a "tune" for a few hundred bucks. But they can't tell you it passes all of the GM durability test that were done on your Camaro, hence the warranty issue.

Don't get me wrong, I had an optional ROM for my 87 Grand National. It added boost and let the engine knock more. But I also knew it was at a price.

I spoke to my local Chevy Service Manager and I asked him what their policy was on bolt on upgrades. He read off a long list of possible upgrades including headers, air intake, etc. and what he said the bottom line was, they didn't particularly like you doing upgrades but that making the customer happy would be the end result. Sounds good to me. I was honest with him in asking and he was honest with his answer. I do feel more comfortable about doing a few upgrades now.

[SSRider]

Wow! This thread kind of reminds me of that old Western movie staring Clint Eastwood "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" of tuning

I couldn't reisist, anyway I have some more "Ugly" to add for the newbies to consider before opting for a tune. Here is the scenario, please humor me for a moment: Let's say you add a few mods like headers and a CAI. Your Camaro will need a tune for the headers (otherwise it will display a check engine light). So you have the car tuned and all is well. Now the 2010 Camaro is likely to have a few if not several TSBs announced in the future due to areas of the PCM and car that need tweaks. You take the Camaro in for a routine oil change and guess what??? The GM Goodwrech folks reflash your PCM with the GM recommended/required changes. Whoops, so much for your performance tune.....it's wiped out. If you are heavily modded you are going to be driving out of the dealer in limp mode or calling a flat bed or at the least have the check engine light display. So note to self, talk to your tuners ahead of time and ask if they will reflash your tune if GM needs to perform a PCM update. Also be upfront with your service advisor you can have he/she write "DO NOT FLASH PCM" on the service order but ask what updates, in regard to TSBs, are out there for you to consider(this is what I did when I took the Vette in). This way you can plan for the time when your car will be down instead of a surprise WTF Happy Tuning
P.S. Please just take this information for what it is, my experience and the experience of others I know. Let's not speculate why GM does this we all have a rough idea why (liability, consumer satisfaction, stock holders, its the right thing for most consumers etc) Just know that this can and will happen to some in the future so prepare for it then it will not be a big deal to fix. I hope this has been helpful.

[CGM2SSRS]

Great piece of information! And one that completely avoided my thought process. Thanks!

[nester7929]

Originally Posted by alrox

No. He is telling you to commit warranty fraud. Chevy is not your personal race team. You must pay to play.

Yeah, well there are quite a few people who paid $35k and still can't play, so Chevy needs to do something about this.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by CGM2SSRS

You don't lose fuel efficiency when you open restricted air coming in or going out. Just the opposite.

So you are somehow not maintaining the air/fuel ratio? If you let more air in and out you also MUST let in more fuel. Now if you are saying the engine has to do less work to intake or exhaust, then ok. But if you bring in more air you have to bring in more fuel with it.

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by Number 3

So you are somehow not maintaining the air/fuel ratio? If you let more air in and out you also MUST let in more fuel. Now if you are saying the engine has to do less work to intake or exhaust, then ok. But if you bring in more air you have to bring in more fuel with it.

This man knows his shit!

But seriously; good discussion here. I'm actually learning some things amongst the bickering.


As to the OP; I really feel no lack of power in my maro' ... probably cause I'm used to driving a base Cavalier. But compared to my parents Grand Prix and CTS; it has waaay more kick.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by CGM2SSRS

This would also be false. We are not talking about adding mechanical parts to increase power. We are talking about increasing EFFICIENCY by allowing the air pump (motor) to breathe better. The tune is simply used to readjust air/fuel parameters to accommodate the changes. Bottom line? Making an efficient, performance economical and reliable car more so. The reason GM doesn't do these things in the first place? Cost, big brothers demands/making concessions and so the parts guy's can make a living, jobs.
GM knows were out here doing this. That is why the internals are designed to handle 550 rear wheel HP.

And exactly what cost do you mean? If as you say it makes an engine even more reliable and more fuel efficient, I can't even tell you how much GM would spend for that.

You claim you can make and engine more fuel efficient, more powerful and more reliable than GM? Sorry, but that isn't something you can pull in the aftermarket. You grossly underestimate the millions of dollars and thousands upon thousanads of man hours GM spends to make and engine as economical as powerful and reliable as possible. And you think a "tune" improves ALL of those? Sorry, I work with too many people at GM and I know how hard they work to do this. Can't let that simply pass.

[PQ]

Well wether it be a tune from the dealer. Or something else is the matter with my car, Something is wrong. I won't go aftermarket tune. I'll have my dealer figure out the problem. Car has power but my 60 times are about 1.5 seconds slow from the advertised times. My SS is sbarely getting the LT times. I'm not a pro driver but it's an Automatic tranny and I should get 5.0 seconds by just punching it in the right mode. Maybe 5.2 even, but not over 6.

[Kenny]

Originally Posted by CGM2SSRS

This would also be false. We are not talking about adding mechanical parts to increase power. We are talking about increasing EFFICIENCY by allowing the air pump (motor) to breathe better. The tune is simply used to readjust air/fuel parameters to accommodate the changes. Bottom line? Making an efficient, performance economical and reliable car more so. The reason GM doesn't do these things in the first place? Cost, big brothers demands/making concessions and so the parts guy's can make a living, jobs.
GM knows were out here doing this. That is why the internals are designed to handle 550 rear wheel HP.

OK maybe i'm not following. You're tune is going to increase horsepower yes? and if this is the case more horsepower would add extra stress on driveline components no? I'm no expert by far but i'm really having a hard time with your logic.

Also as number 3 states you can't just put more oxygen in the engine without increasing the amount of fuel to maintain the correct mixture...unless i'm missing something here as well.

Not trying to stir anything up but your statements go against things i have been taught. If you can point me to some literature perhaps that i can read it would be appreciated.
Thanks in adavance.

[CGM2SSRS]

If you open the intake to take in more air," yes indeed you increase fuel to maintain the A/F ratio"
While also opening up the exhaust there is less friction, less heat and less acceleration needed to obtain the OE level of performance. Less engine speed (to achieve the same as stock). Now like I said, if you put your foot in it your going to lose your fuel economy. Obviously. But if you use your CAGS (shift eliminator) and find the,"sweet spot" you'll undoubtedly improve fuel economy. I did it in my 05 silverado.
Do you really think I'm dishing derogatory slander against GM employee's? What I'm saying is real word shit. Facts. The almighty dollar.
Totally off topic but cold reality of how FU things can be in this real world.
Do you think our troops were incapable of winning the vietnam war?
Compliments of the US government. Now do you think there are reasons why a perfect car has never been developed? The capability is there without a doubt. Next.

[ttazzijr700]

ok so i read it normal for cars with lower miles to feel slow? (i got my car a few days ago and only have 200 miles on it, a Auto 1SS). If so, how much actual power difference do you feel when you finish the break in? And even though im not supposed to , i have kind of been friving with a heavy foot. will this hurt performence in the future?. thanx

[67camaro99]

Originally Posted by ttazzijr700

ok so i read it normal for cars with lower miles to feel slow? (i got my car a few days ago and only have 200 miles on it, a Auto 1SS). If so, how much actual power difference do you feel when you finish the break in? And even though im not supposed to , i have kind of been friving with a heavy foot. will this hurt performence in the future?. thanx

I am not sure, I have not used any kind of telomotry to quantify the power difference, but my car all of a sudden feels fasters....
The first hundred miles, it felt like the transmission was learning gears... had some abrupt take offs, almost as if I was a novice driving a manual...REALLY WEIRD... my car as the A6 (2SS)

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by CGM2SSRS

If you open the intake to take in more air," yes indeed you increase fuel to maintain the A/F ratio"
While also opening up the exhaust there is less friction, less heat and less acceleration needed to obtain the OE level of performance. Less engine speed (to achieve the same as stock). Now like I said, if you put your foot in it your going to lose your fuel economy. Obviously. But if you use your CAGS (shift eliminator) and find the,"sweet spot" you'll undoubtedly improve fuel economy. I did it in my 05 silverado.
Do you really think I'm dishing derogatory slander against GM employee's? What I'm saying is real word shit. Facts. The almighty dollar.
Totally off topic but cold reality of how FU things can be in this real world.
Do you think our troops were incapable of winning the vietnam war?
Compliments of the US government. Now do you think there are reasons why a perfect car has never been developed? The capability is there without a doubt. Next.

I'm sorry -- but I happen to know Number 3 and he's an engineer.

Are you an automotive Engineer that's validated a drivetrain?