2011 Ford Mustang GT 5.0: Production Example Less Powerful

[Jason7]

TRUE, and lets face it guys the stangs are badass always have been always will be. The sooner you guys accept the mustang like i have the better you will be. NOW on the other hand dont get me started on dodge owners or the SRT lines. If i wanted a Yatch i wolda bought a 42' Skater. Ill lose it talking Dodge, along with my IP on this site, lmao.....

JASON

Originally Posted by DarkneSS

Too many 5.0s are running mid 12s imo for this to be bull. Just accept that its a bit faster than the Camaro. Who cares anyway? If you're into racing you arent coming to the track stock.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by assasinator

the dyno does not 'calibrate' to 1:1. hell it has no idea what gear its running and it doesnt care.

where do you get this crap you spew? a dyno reads roller speed, and also rpms from a tach source and figures gearing ratio. thats why lock up autos and autos in general have scewwed results for torque. the ratio varies from converter slip.


1:1 has nothing to do with rear end gearing. the dyno operator never tried to 'calibrate' anything. please stop insisting on total crap please.



guys a 1:1 transmission ratio reads highest because the transmisison is bypassed by a direct drive. also engine friction ratio means the slower the engine turns for a given transmission/final drive ratio the less friction losses you have.


a 2.73 car will read significantly higher than the exact same car with a 4.56. those are the laws of the dyno. not all of that other crap. the dyno automatically corrects for gear ratio. its not 'fooled' by a numerically higher gearing ratio. it accounts for that. my car would read ~10rwhp higher with 3.31's.

Ok, sounds good. I thought for sure anything that had a load cell had to be calibrated quite frequently in accordance with the program factor calibration. I guess we were wrong about the Dynojet though (edit below). Most new dyno's will auto adjust for a 1:1 gear ratio where as other dyno's will just calculate the ratio for the gear that you run in. If your operator is not entering the gear ratios into the dyno before the run, then it has to be an auto 1:1 ratio. You assume that the dyno software doesn't need is critical information, that its just hook up and run?

Contact your local dynoshop and ask them for their dyno model and dynoshops software and/or setup. I would like to show this to Geiger. A Mustang dyno would have even more input from the operator as Geiger uses both.

Edit: Ah, I am seeing now that almost all Dynojet systems are automatically a preset 1:1 transmission ratio as this would eliminate any final gear ratio conflicts vs. roller speed. All the operator needs to do now is verify that the computer's configure file has the proper load-roller inertia factor. The Mustang Dyno requires the ratios, vehicle weight and alot of other information to be input manually. There is a very good reason why software is being standardized now, manual inputs can be manipulated by operators to show what ever they want it to show and it eliminates any acceleration advantage or disadvantage caused by the transmission. The Dynojet is an acceleration type dyno.

Here is a quick quote I found about the losses in each gear on a specific run. I would assume that the slight increases in lower gears would be because the force applied to the roller is being multiplied slightly in lower gears. I still cannot find a source other than you stating that 5th gear reads the highest based on the standardized 1:1x(final drive).

The Dynojet measured 5.1 percent higher horsepower in Fourth gear, 7 percent higher horsepower in Third gear, and 8.2 percent higher horsepower in Second gear.

Please, never say I "spew crap", I would never say that to you, even more so because I do not know you. Just because something sounds new to you or you never heard that before doesn't mean the factor doesn't exist. It took this topic for me to find out that Dynojets no longer require manual input and are 1:1 bound.

[t-ray]

I don't know if dynojets *ever* required manual ratio entry. It's one of the "features" of the dyno - fewer things to change, fewer things to go wrong, and the more consistent values can be from one dyno to another. Price isn't the only reason that Dynojet has the greatest market share.

Assassinator has already stated it, and I will reiterate: A Dynojet 248 doesn't need to know about the weight of the car, the gear ratios, or anything. You hook up an rpm pickup, strap down the car (a procedure unto itself), and go. Gear ratio is easy to calculate: it will be engine rpm divided drum rpm. That's the complete to-the-tire ratio - engine * transmission * axle * tire.

In fact, if you download winpep and view your dynojet runs, one of the selectable header columns is gear/drive ratio. What's interesting to note is that this number can see very small changes from run to run, due to tire deformation.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by t-ray

I don't know if dynojets *ever* required manual ratio entry. It's one of the "features" of the dyno - fewer things to change, fewer things to go wrong, and the more consistent values can be from one dyno to another. Price isn't the only reason that Dynojet has the greatest market share.

Assassinator has already stated it, and I will reiterate: A Dynojet 248 doesn't need to know about the weight of the car, the gear ratios, or anything. You hook up an rpm pickup, strap down the car (a procedure unto itself), and go. Gear ratio is easy to calculate: it will be engine rpm divided drum rpm. That's the complete to-the-tire ratio - engine * transmission * axle * tire.

In fact, if you download winpep and view your dynojet runs, one of the selectable header columns is gear/drive ratio. What's interesting to note is that this number can see very small changes from run to run, due to tire deformation.

Yeah, I read that from Bristol or FI Motorsports (I think) earlier today. Dynojets have everything pre determined on the configure file software and there is no need to input anything manually. The configuration software is standardized to a 1:1 for many reasons but one reason being: it is easier to operate. The Mustang Dyno requires mountains of manual input before the run, even though it is a force type dyno.

I am still trying to find another source that has the 5th gear producing higher figures than 4th. Do you have any links to share that would state this? I don't need any charts, just somewhere I can start and maybe get some additional information on this.

Edit: Ah, I got this from Bristol

Many dynamometer operators go right for the gear that is the closest to a 1:1 ratio as it has the lowest drag in the gearbox and therefore the highest horsepower reading (usually) on a vehicle that is properly sized to be tested on this dyno. Of course, many cars don't have true 1:1 gear ratios, and many cars are not the exact proper size that the dyno was designed for, so blindly going for the gear ratio that is closest to 1:1 is not always the right answer.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by assasinator

guys a 1:1 transmission ratio reads highest because the transmisison is bypassed by a direct drive. also engine friction ratio means the slower the engine turns for a given transmission/final drive ratio the less friction losses you have.

I found a source saying that 5th will produce a higher figure, in a PDF we have Kenne Bell says:

The trans gear ratio that is 1:1 will make the most power as it is the most efficient. For example, a 4 speed manual trans with 1:1 will make more power than 3rd gear, 2nd and 1st gear will make progressively less power............ All Kenne Bell dyno test are run that way as our inertia rear wheel dyno software is programed to run in 1:1-unless of course, you want a dyno run with less power

Kenne Bell says that the Dynojet is the most accurate and reliable dyno on the market. He says:

that too many variables have to be calculated in "other" dyno machines such as weight, aerodynamic drag, gearing and road load. Those factors are of no intrest to our customers

Wouldn't "real world" numbers that a Mustang Dyno calculate be more valuable? I know this is just a measuring tool and thats seems to be what Kenne Bell is trying to say but I would figure the "real" readings would be more interesting.

I also found a short publishing that stated that:

Based on our test data, the Mustang dyno loaded our test vehicle and measured the rearwheel horsepower closer to what the vehicle experiences on the road.

and a writeup from Engine Logics:

At anything other than a direct 1:1 in the transmission, the engines torque (power) is being multiplied and would calculate engine output incorrectly and much higher than 1:1

So, I have no idea what to believe. Everyone says something different... Thing only real information that I got out of today's adventure is that Dynometer's calculations are not actual output, Dynojets use pre-program software, Mustang Dyno's require operator input vs. software, never change dynometer's while tuning one vehicle, the Dynojet's calculations are loose and the Mustang Dynometer's calculations are too tight.

Edit: I also found out that a heavier car will produce higher numbers on a Dynojet, as a heavier car can spin the 4000lb rollers easier.

[t-ray]

If you want to talk about the various types of dynos, I suggest you start a different thread. I'm not being an ass - I'm serious. There's just too much to discuss on that topic.

I don't know if I can cite any online source that states higher gears will produce higher measurements. However, I can make that statement empirically. My g35 has been run on four different Dynojet 248s, for various reasons, and 5th (the 1:1 in the g35) always produced higher numbers.

In fact, I would always request that the first couple of runs be made in 4th gear, and the last run be made in 5th. 5th couldn't be run all the way to redline (speed limiter), so fourth was used to get an idea of powerband north of 6500rpm. But 5th produced higher peak numbers.

In my g35, going from 4th to 5th was worth at least 5hp to 7hp (peak), maybe even 10hp, depending on the dyno that day.

[TJ91]

no need to prove anything here, we know the 5.0 is a beast
LS3 is still badass too, lets be happy that all the american muscle have really good powerplants

[KarFan]

Hard to draw conclusions about any mass produced car from 2 dyno runs on two different days.