Project "Xanthos" blueprint.

[BowtieGuy]

Good luck man. I'll be following this project quite closely. Just don't get your hopes too high.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by andyrew

Looks like you certainly have a plan. BUT Im really questioning if your going to be able to hit your HP marks.

On a FULL exhaust (heads back) I dont think you'll ever see more than 40WHP. Especially from an already highly developing engine.

Intake, sure 15whp assuming your not maxing out your injectors already. Im suprized you didnt say anything about a larger throttle body. With all this air exiting your going to want more air going into the engine (even more than just an intake).

Now you say you want to do water injection. Realize that without increased timing your only talking a couple of hp. To really make use of this system you want to put the water injection to run on WOT say above 3krpms and you'll want to increase your timing to the point of registering that the system is pulling timing due to knocking. This is the same thing as running 100 octane. Doing this properly figure about 15hp gain or so.
This assumes you have the ability to adjust timing, IMHO I think you should figure for getting a custom tune by whatever tune shop has the ability to crack the ecu. And were also assuming you have not maxed out your factory injectors or fuel pump. Which when nearing close to 100whp more than factory marks, I think its certainly a possibility that you need to entertain.



Personally, Im going to do mufflers, or maybe a cat back depending on how I feel. an intake (I'll make it look as stock as possible), whatever tune comes out; and if I still feel like its a slow dog, I'll to a 75 shot fogger system. Hide all the lines and the bottle so whomever looks under or in the car will think its stock.

All I have to say is...

Read the works cited. Everything is documented there. Along with dyno charts.
- Xanthos

[andyrew]

Dyno charts show everything piece by piece. Putting them all together doesnt yeild you with the same results.

Doing mod A plus mod B doesnt equal A+B in terms of power. A+B=C...

The weak link on the full exhaust dyno was that it needed to be opened up a little. Opening up the exaust more and more will not give you a continuous positive result.

Your going to find that once you find the couple of week links in the engine your going to run into a hurdle to get over certain power goals.



How long have you been building cars? How many cars have you had a hand in modifying and dynoing?

Im just saying not to be discouraged once you get to the dyno and realize that when your looking for 360whp that you only hit 330whp.



PS: you shouldnt say fwhp (which means front wheel horse power) you should say whp or rwhp (rear whp)


BTW how old are you?

[Super83Z]

Very doable. GM has said that the 3.6 is good for 370 factory hp. Who knows what that involves but I am sure its nothing too drastic from the current set-up.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by andyrew

Dyno charts show everything piece by piece. Putting them all together doesnt yeild you with the same results.

Doing mod A plus mod B doesnt equal A+B in terms of power. A+B=C...

The weak link on the full exhaust dyno was that it needed to be opened up a little. Opening up the exaust more and more will not give you a continuous positive result.

Your going to find that once you find the couple of week links in the engine your going to run into a hurdle to get over certain power goals.



How long have you been building cars? How many cars have you had a hand in modifying and dynoing?

Im just saying not to be discouraged once you get to the dyno and realize that when your looking for 360whp that you only hit 330whp.



PS: you shouldnt say fwhp (which means front wheel horse power) you should say whp or rwhp (rear whp)


BTW how old are you?

I'll be 21 in July. And I was saying fwhp and rwhp seperately to differentiate between flywheel horsepower and rear wheel horsepower.
- Xanthos

[andyrew]

CHP is typically what is used for crank horsepower. FWHP can be determined as front wheel or flywheel and can be very misleading when talking on a forum.



Oh and super were not talking about a mere 65hp increase. Were talking about a whole 120hp increase.



Without an increase in compression, displacement or other internal modifications, or radical change in timing I dont believe that getting above 370~ crank HP is going to be doable by the general public. (This excludes forced induction).

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by andyrew

CHP is typically what is used for crank horsepower. FWHP can be determined as front wheel or flywheel and can be very misleading when talking on a forum.



Oh and super were not talking about a mere 65hp increase. Were talking about a whole 120hp increase.



Without an increase in compression, displacement or other internal modifications, or radical change in timing I dont believe that getting above 370~ crank HP is going to be doable by the general public. (This excludes forced induction).

Actually, we're only talking about 96 chp. But as for not being doable by the general public - we'll just have to see once the cars hit the road. If I turn out to be wrong, I'll eat my words. I don't think I will be, though.

Why did you ask my age, anyway?
- Xanthos

[andyrew]

I was curious. I've seen a lot of teens and young boys talk about doing mods and say "this was proven for this much this was proven for this much, add it all together and I should be at X hp. When they finally get to proving it, its about 1/2 the increase they had calculated.

I see it all the time...

[THE EVIL TW1N]

i doubt you'll get much at all from replacing the cats. On my supercharged cobra, the typical gain is 5-7 rwhp or so going from the stock 4 cat pipe to an off road x pipe. And 20 rwhp is very optimistic for the long tubes... Maybe on an LT1 with what looked like crush bent exhaust manifolds. It's probably closer to 10-12 rwhp.

[Gentry78]

Originally Posted by andyrew

Personally, Im going to do mufflers, or maybe a cat back depending on how I feel. an intake (I'll make it look as stock as possible), whatever tune comes out; and if I still feel like its a slow dog, I'll to a 75 shot fogger system. Hide all the lines and the bottle so whomever looks under or in the car will think its stock.

yeah it will look stock until that mustang looks over and see's you hitting that purge and all you see next is

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by Gentry78

yeah it will look stock until that mustang looks over and see's you hitting that purge and all you see next is

ya, because if he raced another Camaro that didn't have nitrous, it will still be a tie

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by andyrew

Dyno charts show everything piece by piece. Putting them all together doesnt yeild you with the same results.

Doing mod A plus mod B doesnt equal A+B in terms of power. A+B=C...

The weak link on the full exhaust dyno was that it needed to be opened up a little. Opening up the exaust more and more will not give you a continuous positive result.

Your going to find that once you find the couple of week links in the engine your going to run into a hurdle to get over certain power goals.

How long have you been building cars? How many cars have you had a hand in modifying and dynoing?

Im just saying not to be discouraged once you get to the dyno and realize that when your looking for 360whp that you only hit 330whp.

PS: you shouldnt say fwhp (which means front wheel horse power) you should say whp or rwhp (rear whp)


BTW how old are you?

doesnt always add up the same, sometimes its more power in the end as some parts complement each other more than others. I know too many people who go out and buy a generic cam, then go buy a set of p&p heads and arent putting out the numbers that they "should" because that particular combo doesnt work well together. but others who do their research before jumping in on the aftermarket bandwagon, will go at the overall setup to match components to complement each other.


as for fwhp... it only means front wheel horse power when you are talking about a front wheel drive car.

Originally Posted by andyrew

I was curious. I've seen a lot of teens and young boys talk about doing mods and say "this was proven for this much this was proven for this much, add it all together and I should be at X hp. When they finally get to proving it, its about 1/2 the increase they had calculated.

I see it all the time...

and I see a lot of older people getting online and inadvertently trying to put peoples dreams down.

this is how hotrodding got started. a regular guy and a wrench. not a multimillion dollar corportation. Xanathos' plan has hot rod written all over it. granted he's not fabricating the whole thing from the ground up, but he's building HIS setup. however, you are right about the hp #'s that get thrown out there. I pointed that out with a few other members when we were discussing 4th gen exhausts. another member posted up IIRC SLP loudmouth exhaust and it had a higher power number than the other exhausts... but they also had an intake kit on the car they tested. which nullified the results of any gains.

Originally Posted by Gentry78

yeah it will look stock until that mustang looks over and see's you hitting that purge and all you see next is

thats why you run the purge line into a hidden port lol

[andyrew]

I understand that modifications often compliment each other.

Also were not talking valvetrain matching and head porting here, were talking about a freeflowing exhaust and an intake. Many times when doing these bolt ons there will be an initial big increase in HP due to the large increase in flow on either the exhaust or intake, however continuing to increase the flow gives exponentially less HP increase until finally it becomes a determent to the system. However that will never happen when he's still running the stock tubing.



Also please realize im not telling him that he shouldnt do any modifications, I simply gave him my input on his numbers and told him he should increase his timing somehow to account for water injection. I fully support him doing these mods, but he shouldnt be frustrated if he only nets half his goal HP from simple bolt ons (I do think he will hit about 3/4 of his HP goal though).

Im 22, however I've been building v8's and dyno tuning turbocharged cars since I was 14. My first car was my 914, which 2 years later I threw in a 350sbc.

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

doesnt always add up the same, sometimes its more power in the end as some parts complement each other more than others. I know too many people who go out and buy a generic cam, then go buy a set of p&p heads and arent putting out the numbers that they "should" because that particular combo doesnt work well together. but others who do their research before jumping in on the aftermarket bandwagon, will go at the overall setup to match components to complement each other.


as for fwhp... it only means front wheel horse power when you are talking about a front wheel drive car.







and I see a lot of older people getting online and inadvertently trying to put peoples dreams down.

this is how hotrodding got started. a regular guy and a wrench. not a multimillion dollar corportation. Xanathos' plan has hot rod written all over it. granted he's not fabricating the whole thing from the ground up, but he's building HIS setup. however, you are right about the hp #'s that get thrown out there. I pointed that out with a few other members when we were discussing 4th gen exhausts. another member posted up IIRC SLP loudmouth exhaust and it had a higher power number than the other exhausts... but they also had an intake kit on the car they tested. which nullified the results of any gains.


thats why you run the purge line into a hidden port lol

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by andyrew

I understand that modifications often compliment each other.

Also were not talking valvetrain matching and head porting here, were talking about a freeflowing exhaust and an intake. Many times when doing these bolt ons there will be an initial big increase in HP due to the large increase in flow on either the exhaust or intake, however continuing to increase the flow gives exponentially less HP increase until finally it becomes a determent to the system. However that will never happen when he's still running the stock tubing.



Also please realize im not telling him that he shouldnt do any modifications, I simply gave him my input on his numbers and told him he should increase his timing somehow to account for water injection. I fully support him doing these mods, but he shouldnt be frustrated if he only nets half his goal HP from simple bolt ons (I do think he will hit about 3/4 of his HP goal though).

Im 22, however I've been building v8's and dyno tuning turbocharged cars since I was 14. My first car was my 914, which 2 years later I threw in a 350sbc.

I agree. I know already that they gained 30+ hp without a tune running a CAI on the Caddy with this same motor. dont know what the exhaust will do however.


I really want him to hit his mark before going mechanical FI. tho if he does run a few hp shy... a 50 shot of nitrous would surely put him to where he wants to be....