VVT Cam .......... or ......... LS3 Conversion

[mlee]

Originally Posted by PQ

Ok. So we may get somewhere with this.

A stall and cam at the same time.

Suspension mods for hooking. (trailing arms, bushing, etc.....)

So then, I still need to figure out what I think would be best. VVT cam, or LS3 conv.?

In order to not have to revisit. I wanna figure out my process.

Maybe a pros and cons of VVT and LS3 according to C5 member opinion.....

Are costs a factor here?... I was trying to spread out costs for you. If you know what cam you want, the TC and Cam are two completely separate installs. Also, sticky tires are probably the most important thing... All 3 of these can be staged out at different times. Tires being first. I hit the track last weekend on DR's and still couldn't hook with the TC.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Randy, the best advice I can offer is to be careful in the LSA or overlap of the cam you choose... (lobe separation angle). With a boosted motor, too small of an angle and you are pushing boost out the tailpipe... If I remember correctly what I've learned... The big rump rump cams have small LSA's and that's where part of the shimmy shimmy shake comes from... They sound old school amazing, but are not the best choice... My cam of choice which would serve you very well for a 66-7 without VVT has a LSA of 121 degrees. My thread has the box end in a picture where you can see the rest of the specs...I listened to a CTSV caddy with the same cam, wicked sounding, very drivable, and making 638 hp with a few other minor goodies...6speed manual trans mixer, but none the less... good luck... And get some suspension going or you leaving HP and rubber on the asphalt..I'll see you in about 4 weeks... If you want to, I'll let you try a set of 18 inch wheels and MT drag radials for a pass... But not in the pass against me... Well, that might make it fair for you...

[klatterblast]

PQ i have a magnacharged , dod delete, tci super harmonic balancer, cammed w/comp single bolt cam 223/236 .610"/.608" 117+4 lsa from thunder racing, stock torque converter, runs and sounds great.

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Milk 1027

I don;t understand why people are saying LS3 conversion is the only way for big power.
Many L99's are making big power on VVT cams. Granted, some of these results are with heads too.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...hlight=VVT+cam
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...hlight=VVT+cam

To make that big power with VVT the lifters still have to come out, so once the heads come off it's decision time. I opted to go LS3.. sitting at 462hp now.

[jsharp]

I dont think anyone with 500 will hook on any stall with dr's like they want to. I would say slicks will be needed for track use!

Wooh! PQ are you as overwhelmed as I am lol looks like you got some big decisions to make.

[zebra]

702 632 0270
ask for Jeff (the guy @ TPE i was trying to call on the way to Jax) - he does blower cams for LS engines every day

Originally Posted by Milk 1027

Becuse I said so. And Greg Norris approves this.

Greg Norris is the mythical joke of the century!

Originally Posted by Dangeruss

...Once your cam goes in it will drop your boost anyway so you'll need it...

not if you cam it right

Originally Posted by Huggerorange73

..Also....match your cam choice to your stall..HAVE A PLAN! This is very important in the big picture. Smaller VVT cams could very well fly without a stall, larger cams will without question require a stall to be driveable. Don't do one without the other.

Last, but for sure not least ( and this one will sound crazy, but hear me out ) You're sitting at 470 RWHP right now and can't put it down, but yet you're chasing even more HP. Here's what I suggest....work on your suspension set up including a nice sticky tire. If you can put down what you're using, you just may find that you already have all the power you need.
...

quoted for truth

Originally Posted by PQ

Fair enough. But what if I want the cam before the stall?

Is there a decision in that it's self? Or just a mild cam either way. I'd rather do the stall later. But I don't want to do anything stupid.

I'm leaning conversion but I'd sure like to get the same power, reliability, and total benefit from a VVT since it would be easier.

at least you're open to opinions. heck... i wanted to cam the truck before i did headers. glad i didn't - i wouldn't've seen a lot of benefit with the manifolds restricting the crap out of it.

that's what a cam without a stall would do (especially with them clown-shoe wheels ya got), it'd be such a dog off the line that you'd facepalm yourself all the way through first gear every time

Originally Posted by Huggerorange73

PQ, to do it the right way the cam and stall choice need to be married to each other.

Big cam will without a doubt require a stall.....don't half ass it. If you need to hold off till you can swing both, do that.

just like Doc told me with my blower - it's best to just hold your horses, save up & do it all together. that way you save the headache of going in twice (yeah, you're going in 2 places, but the principle stands).

[Huggerorange73]

PQ, there is a truckload of stellar info in this thread.

Couple of very important things :

Someone brought up LSA, that is very key with boost. With boost less is more...

Keep in mind duration is important is well. Lift determines how high the valve is off the seat, duration is how long that valve stays open for.

All of it also relates to piston to valve clearance.....once you're over .600 lift you need to pay close attention to duration and LSA. You over rev, or bounce it off a rev limiter you run the risk of valves floating which will lead to valves kissing pistons. Not good.

I'm kinda giving you the cliff notes version of this....kind of hard to go into great detail over a forum. If you'd like I can PM you my cell # and I'll be glad to help ya out any way I can.

Don't chase a dyno number.....if you're looking to run a number at the strip, it's quite possible you're already there horsepower wise but simply aren't putting the power to good use.

Case in point would be me....I laid down 470 RWHP and ran a 13.1 @ 117. My trap speed should be in the high 11s, but because I couldn't put the power down I looked like an asshat at the track. So what did I do first....I ported my intake and throttle body Good idea...add more power to a car that can't hook already. STUPID!

Tuesday, I'm installing Pedders cradle inserts, outer trailing arm bushings ( already have the Spohn trailing arms ) , Pfadt sways and DSS Level 5 axles. As soon as possible I'm throwing on a set of drag radials, and I'll lay money I come home with my 11 second timeslip ( provided my output shaft doesn't explode first ).

At the very least, do the cradle inserts and drag radials....you can do all that for less than 1K. Run the car, and if it's not where you want it to be...then it's time for a cam and a stall.

[Dangeruss]

Originally Posted by zebra

not if you cam it right

I'm a complete amateur at this, but I've never heard of installing a cam with a blower and not losing boost. Please enlighten me.

[Supercharged SS]

Originally Posted by PQ

The TC is definitely something I will be doing down the road.

My car is a bit underpowered considering the mods. Blown with all the components and only 471rwhp. Ya, the wheels don't help, but guys with 22s have had better numbers. I'm not neccesarily chasing a number, because I wouldn't know what number to chase, but I do think I'm underpowered now, considering. Maybe my borla headers with the small primaries is hurting? Nto sure, but If I'm gonna do a cam, I want the max power benefit I can safely get.

Jeez, only 471! How do you get by! that would be more than enough for me if I wanted a nice daily driver.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by mlee

Are costs a factor here?... I was trying to spread out costs for you. If you know what cam you want, the TC and Cam are two completely separate installs. Also, sticky tires are probably the most important thing... All 3 of these can be staged out at different times. Tires being first. I hit the track last weekend on DR's and still couldn't hook with the TC.

Cost is a factor, but cost that makes sense. If it makes sense to me to pay more, then I will. Just may take longer.

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

Randy, the best advice I can offer is to be careful in the LSA or overlap of the cam you choose... (lobe separation angle). With a boosted motor, too small of an angle and you are pushing boost out the tailpipe... If I remember correctly what I've learned... The big rump rump cams have small LSA's and that's where part of the shimmy shimmy shake comes from... They sound old school amazing, but are not the best choice... My cam of choice which would serve you very well for a 66-7 without VVT has a LSA of 121 degrees. My thread has the box end in a picture where you can see the rest of the specs...I listened to a CTSV caddy with the same cam, wicked sounding, very drivable, and making 638 hp with a few other minor goodies...6speed manual trans mixer, but none the less... good luck... And get some suspension going or you leaving HP and rubber on the asphalt..I'll see you in about 4 weeks... If you want to, I'll let you try a set of 18 inch wheels and MT drag radials for a pass... But not in the pass against me... Well, that might make it fair for you...

But the 'LSA' changes at different times with a VVT right?

Gets confusing to me.

I may take you up on the wheel borrowing. Of course, not against you or Chris......

Originally Posted by klatterblast

PQ i have a magnacharged , dod delete, tci super harmonic balancer, cammed w/comp single bolt cam 223/236 .610"/.608" 117+4 lsa from thunder racing, stock torque converter, runs and sounds great.

Sounds awesome. What made ou decide on that?

Originally Posted by jsharp

Wooh! PQ are you as overwhelmed as I am lol looks like you got some big decisions to make.

Originally Posted by zebra

702 632 0270
ask for Jeff (the guy @ TPE i was trying to call on the way to Jax) - he does blower cams for LS engines every day Where is he at?

at least you're open to opinions. heck... i wanted to cam the truck before i did headers. glad i didn't - i wouldn't've seen a lot of benefit with the manifolds restricting the crap out of it. LOL, I am trying to be open and patient.

that's what a cam without a stall would do (especially with them clown-shoe wheels ya got), it'd be such a dog off the line that you'd facepalm yourself all the way through first gear every time Clown shoes.....



just like Doc told me with my blower - it's best to just hold your horses, save up & do it all together. that way you save the headache of going in twice (yeah, you're going in 2 places, but the principle stands).

Originally Posted by Huggerorange73

If I was you...this is what I would do :

1. Rear subframe cradle inserts
2. Trailing arms ( do the rear bushing as well, only the Pfadt trailing arms come with both the front & the rear )
3. Drag radials ( worst case, put them on your stock 20" wheels )
4. Decide how much power you want to add
5. Big power => LS3 conversion ( match stall to cam choice )
6. Smaller gains => VVT cam swap ( match stall to cam choice )

Originally Posted by jsharp

You probably wont get a lot of "valuable" information on one vs the other right now from members other than the ones with LS3 conversion say:
I have better/wider cam selection
I have good lifters now which shops say is a weak point
I spend more money lol
I think I have an ls3 now?

Those with VVT:
I have the best of both worlds
Its cheaper and easier to install
I kept my weak lifters or I chose a VVT cam with afm delete and got rid of them for a little more money.
I gained more low end torque then you LS3 guys and maintained Same hp as your cam.

If you want a big comparision what you see from the vendors is the best for now as really VVT cams for the camaro are just now starting to get into peoples mind and engines. If you want more one vs the other from actual drivers then wait. That will give you some time to do the other things!!! Not only do you have to decide ls3 vs VVT but also VVT vs VVT with afm delete

If I want tried and true, I do the conversion. It would be the safest way out for sure. Less variables.

Originally Posted by Milk 1027

I don;t understand why people are saying LS3 conversion is the only way for big power.
Many L99's are making big power on VVT cams. Granted, some of these results are with heads too.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...hlight=VVT+cam
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...hlight=VVT+cam

Lots of different factors though. My blower for one.

Originally Posted by Darth_Emma

Something to consider is that the LS3 conversion leaves you open to MOAR POWER later. But then, you're not likely to want that.

I'll be done after this.

Originally Posted by Huggerorange73

Because my LS3 with a sub .600 lift is at 470 RWHP without touching the heads.

Not knocking those 2 threads, trust me....475 RWHP out of a VVT L99 is stout, but you can make some insane power numbers with a big cam in a LS3 that you simply can't stuff in an L99 because of the lifters, and possibly piston to valve clearance.

I don't want to worry about clearance. Just put a cam in and enjoy.

Originally Posted by mlee

To make that big power with VVT the lifters still have to come out, so once the heads come off it's decision time. I opted to go LS3.. sitting at 462hp now.

Exactly. If I gotta take the heads off, it's LS3 conversion and be done with it.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Dangeruss

I'm a complete amateur at this, but I've never heard of installing a cam with a blower and not losing boost. Please enlighten me.

It primarily has to do with LSA and then duration... If the LSA is too small, then the exhaust and intake valves are both open at the same time... This can also be affected by the duration. The exhaust valve can still be open when the intake valve opens, thus, boost swirls through the chamber and out the exhaust valve...reduction in boost...limit the duration, and open the LSA and you retain the boost where you want it, in the cylinder... Basically, you want the exhaust valve closed when the intake valve opens...

[Dangeruss]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

It primarily has to do with LSA and then duration... If the LSA is too small, then the exhaust and intake valves are both open at the same time... This can also be affected by the duration. The exhaust valve can still be open when the intake valve opens, thus, boost swirls through the chamber and out the exhaust valve...reduction in boost...limit the duration, and open the LSA and you retain the boost where you want it, in the cylinder... Basically, you want the exhaust valve closed when the intake valve opens...

So is anything else limited at that point? Lope? Power?

[Supercharged SS]

PQ, have you thought about bigger headers if you do a cam. There might be some gain if you do. I didnt read this entire thread but don't you have 1 3/4's.

[SSE 4 2SS]

PQ, I believe the LSA with VVT is where you get into the +... Cams, but don't quote me on that...