Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Bigwormgraphix
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Chevy Camaro vs...


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-29-2010, 03:02 PM   #2143
THE EVIL TW1N
Banned
 
Drives: 2003 Cobra Convertible
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 2,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by danhr View Post
getting heads milled can be done at any joe shmo machien shop and costs <$100 (usually somewhere around 50-60). If you are getting your heads ported, usually the person/company porting it will do it for free with the port job.

The rule of thumb I have always been told is that for every point in compression you go up, that is worth 4% in torque. and you can go up damn near a solid point, as the stock ls3 has a 10.5 c/r. So you are looking at 20+hp in just milling alone.... let alone port work and blah blha blhablahblahblahblbhalbhalbhablhalbhalbhablhablhba insert ricer internet racer math here balhblahblbhalbhalbhalbhalhbl
yeah that 4% is commonly thrown around because people used to bump their compression from 8:1 up to 9:1 back when combustion chambers were crappy designs so engines had low compression from the factory. Bumping up 1 point of compression from 10.5 to 11.5 is not going to gain nearly as much as bumping compression from 8:1 to 9:1. a 2% gain can still be worth it though, even if it is 100bucks. sheesh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1 View Post
I know what you mean obviously.

But their is not a lot of figures to work with. It is too early to just call it an anomaly.
Thats what I am saying.
that might be true. But out of 5 people ive seen post on this site that are cammed only 3 are on the list. But out of those 5, ive seen 116mph , 115.5mph, 115.5mph, 118mph and 121mph....the 121mph run seems to stand out more than the others. thats all im really saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1 View Post
do you always have a bad attitude?
emotions are not on the same side as reason and logic so it only shows weakness in his arguments.
THE EVIL TW1N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 03:08 PM   #2144
danhr
BAMF SS
 
danhr's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Camaro 1SS A8
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ford City, PA
Posts: 3,023
Send a message via AIM to danhr
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1 View Post
do you always have a bad attitude?
no.... sometimes i'm an ass hole too

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N View Post
yeah that 4% is commonly thrown around because people used to bump their compression from 8:1 up to 9:1 back when combustion chambers were crappy designs so engines had low compression from the factory. Bumping up 1 point of compression from 10.5 to 11.5 is not going to gain nearly as much as bumping compression from 8:1 to 9:1. a 2% gain can still be worth it though, even if it is 100bucks. sheesh.
I remember when I spoke to LG about it, they said I was leaving ~20rwhp on the table by not flycutting/milling my heads. I don't have anything to back up either claims because I haven't (nor do I know anyone) that did a back to back comparison on a ls3, from just milling the heads. All I can say is that I read it on the internet... so it has to be true.
__________________
2016 1SS A8: FBO + Circle D + P1X + Meth + Tuned by Pray Performance

Stock Longblock

800 SAE rwhp. 9.4 @ 145 mph.
danhr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 04:45 PM   #2145
THE EVIL TW1N
Banned
 
Drives: 2003 Cobra Convertible
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 2,925
Stock compression is 10.7 so I wouldn't call it weak sauce either.that's a pretty healthy number. There's only so much you can mill also since piston to valve clearance is pretty close on the ls3 and which would mean fly cutting the pistons would be recommended especially if you plan on running a decently healthy cam. Im not sure how much fly cutting the pistons would run u and i know it aint a huge deal but that's just a lil something else
THE EVIL TW1N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 04:56 PM   #2146
danhr
BAMF SS
 
danhr's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Camaro 1SS A8
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ford City, PA
Posts: 3,023
Send a message via AIM to danhr
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N View Post
Stock compression is 10.7 so I wouldn't call it weak sauce either.that's a pretty healthy number. There's only so much you can mill also since piston to valve clearance is pretty close on the ls3 and which would mean fly cutting the pistons would be recommended especially if you plan on running a decently healthy cam. Im not sure how much fly cutting the pistons would run u and i know it aint a huge deal but that's just a lil something else
Well to each their own... i consider 10.7 weaksauce.... I guess you don't... tomato potato, big jolly green giant

and yeah... flycutting goes hand in hand with any sort of cam and milling.... I dont know how much it would cost a non-diy-er..... but if you do work yourself, like me, it costs you <100 to buy the tool needed to do it, and just a little patience.

For a shop to do it... i dunno? i try not to take my car to shops. lol.
__________________
2016 1SS A8: FBO + Circle D + P1X + Meth + Tuned by Pray Performance

Stock Longblock

800 SAE rwhp. 9.4 @ 145 mph.
danhr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 05:01 PM   #2147
THE EVIL TW1N
Banned
 
Drives: 2003 Cobra Convertible
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 2,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by danhr View Post
Well to each their own... i consider 10.7 weaksauce.... I guess you don't... tomato potato, big jolly green giant

and yeah... flycutting goes hand in hand with any sort of cam and milling.... I dont know how much it would cost a non-diy-er..... but if you do work yourself, like me, it costs you <100 to buy the tool needed to do it, and just a little patience.

For a shop to do it... i dunno? i try not to take my car to shops. lol.
You consider a small 0.8 point increase awesome but 10.7 weak sauce?!? That's a hilariously small margin. And the time to do things still should be considered when you count cost (plus tools) unless you consider your time and hard work worthless.....
Ps you said it was A hundred bucks for tools and a hundred for milling and who knows how much more time involved and now the 2 percent increase ain't looking so practical....
THE EVIL TW1N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 05:05 PM   #2148
danhr
BAMF SS
 
danhr's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Camaro 1SS A8
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ford City, PA
Posts: 3,023
Send a message via AIM to danhr
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N View Post
You consider a small 0.8 point increase awesome but 10.7 weak sauce?!? That's a hilariously small margin. And the time to do things still should be considered when you count cost (plus tools) unless you consider your time and hard work worthless.....
I'm sorry if I find wrenching on my car an enjoyable hobby? lol

I happen to like cars and working on them.... kind of why I have a camaro. haha.

I thought that was a good reason to be a car enthusiast, I guess you find it hilarious that people actually LIKE to work on their cars and not pay people to do it for them?

PS I said porters also usually mill heads for FREE, when they port heads.. that means FREE... i'm sorry, but maybe the third time is a charm... FREE..... I know when I got my west coast cylinder heads, rich asked me how much I wanted milled off of them, and charged me nothing. I paid $1250 for a set of 360+ cfm heads... milled...shipped. throw in $100 for head gaskets, $100 for flycutting tool (that you can sell afterwards and recoupe money), and we are looking at under 1500 for roughly 40 rwhp..... so very not practical at all. (then you can deduct ~300 from that, bececause you can sell your stock heads), so make that 1200 for ~40 rwhp. so very not practical

and you can sell the tool afterwards, as there are plenty of ls3 vette guys who flycut pistons... there are even rental programs too!
__________________
2016 1SS A8: FBO + Circle D + P1X + Meth + Tuned by Pray Performance

Stock Longblock

800 SAE rwhp. 9.4 @ 145 mph.

Last edited by danhr; 11-29-2010 at 05:22 PM.
danhr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 05:27 PM   #2149
Impact
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro V6
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tn
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by camaro guy View Post
only fair to blow your SS. NA camaro vs. SC cobra not fair...
This is a stupid statement!

First of all the Mustang Cobra is from 2003 vs. a 2010 Camaro, that is almost over 8 years considering it's almost 2011. Old tech vs. New Tech. The Cobra makes around 420-430 horse power stock (they are underrated and usually dyno around 380 to wheels stock) and that is with a 4.6 liter engine compared to the 2010 Camaro's 6.2 liter engine that makes almost the same horse power. Sounds like they are equal so how is adding a supercharger to the Camaro's much larger engine making it equal? Do you understand the concept of stock?

It just baffles me everytime I see a statement like this. The Camaro has a 6.2 liter engine vs. a 4.6 liter engine and the Camaro makes as much horse power as the 2003 Cobra. It doesn't matter if one is supercharged or not because the Cobra comes from the factory with the supercharger and the Camaro does not. If you ad a blower to the Camaro SS then someone can add a Kenny Bell to the Cobra or a Whipple and the Cobra will win yet again.

If we want to compare naturally aspirated engines then lets compare the 2011 Mustang 5.0 vs. the 2011 Camaro SS and the Mustang comes out on top because it is slightly faster. However comparing the stock 2003 Cobra to a stock 2010 Camaro SS is a very close competition with the edge going to the Cobra because they are slightly faster stock for stock. If you want to compare mods then game over because mod for mod a Camaro SS will not be able to keep up with a 2003 Cobra because those suckers are notorious for being able to get insane amounts of horse power when modding. Lets also not forget that not only does the Cobra have the same amount of horse powers as the SS but it also weighs around 300 pounds less. Stock for Stock their is no doubt that a Cobra is faster. I've seen stock specs for a 2003 Cobra with 4.5 seconds to 60 and 12.6 quartermile times.

http://www.fast-autos.net/

I do bet money that if you add a one of the biggest kenny bell chargers or whipple chargers plus the bolt ons vs. a 2010-2011 Camaro SS with a Supercharger that the Cobra is going to come out top.
Impact is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 05:35 PM   #2150
danhr
BAMF SS
 
danhr's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Camaro 1SS A8
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ford City, PA
Posts: 3,023
Send a message via AIM to danhr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Impact View Post
This is a stupid statement!
You're a stupid statement!
__________________
2016 1SS A8: FBO + Circle D + P1X + Meth + Tuned by Pray Performance

Stock Longblock

800 SAE rwhp. 9.4 @ 145 mph.
danhr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 07:14 PM   #2151
THE EVIL TW1N
Banned
 
Drives: 2003 Cobra Convertible
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 2,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by danhr View Post
I'm sorry if I find wrenching on my car an enjoyable hobby? lol

I happen to like cars and working on them.... kind of why I have a camaro. haha.

I thought that was a good reason to be a car enthusiast, I guess you find it hilarious that people actually LIKE to work on their cars and not pay people to do it for them?

PS I said porters also usually mill heads for FREE, when they port heads.. that means FREE... i'm sorry, but maybe the third time is a charm... FREE..... I know when I got my west coast cylinder heads, rich asked me how much I wanted milled off of them, and charged me nothing. I paid $1250 for a set of 360+ cfm heads... milled...shipped. throw in $100 for head gaskets, $100 for flycutting tool (that you can sell afterwards and recoupe money), and we are looking at under 1500 for roughly 40 rwhp..... so very not practical at all. (then you can deduct ~300 from that, bececause you can sell your stock heads), so make that 1200 for ~40 rwhp. so very not practical

and you can sell the tool afterwards, as there are plenty of ls3 vette guys who flycut pistons... there are even rental programs too!
you must be replying to a different post or poster because i never said working on your own car was a bad thing, only that time is not free. what IS hilarious is you thinking a 0.8increase in compression will turn an engine from weak sauce to a world beating monster. be realistic about it is all im saying.

ps...im looking at their prices and see they are MUCH higher than youre quoting them for.....

also with that being said, did that $1250 you say include valves?valvesprings?locks, retainers seals and valve job? there are always details people try to leave out when downplaying things....and i still dont believe most porters will mill your heads for free.
THE EVIL TW1N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 07:20 PM   #2152
THE EVIL TW1N
Banned
 
Drives: 2003 Cobra Convertible
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 2,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Impact View Post
This is a stupid statement!

First of all the Mustang Cobra is from 2003 vs. a 2010 Camaro, that is almost over 8 years considering it's almost 2011. Old tech vs. New Tech. The Cobra makes around 420-430 horse power stock (they are underrated and usually dyno around 380 to wheels stock) and that is with a 4.6 liter engine compared to the 2010 Camaro's 6.2 liter engine that makes almost the same horse power. Sounds like they are equal so how is adding a supercharger to the Camaro's much larger engine making it equal? Do you understand the concept of stock?

It just baffles me everytime I see a statement like this. The Camaro has a 6.2 liter engine vs. a 4.6 liter engine and the Camaro makes as much horse power as the 2003 Cobra. It doesn't matter if one is supercharged or not because the Cobra comes from the factory with the supercharger and the Camaro does not. If you ad a blower to the Camaro SS then someone can add a Kenny Bell to the Cobra or a Whipple and the Cobra will win yet again.

If we want to compare naturally aspirated engines then lets compare the 2011 Mustang 5.0 vs. the 2011 Camaro SS and the Mustang comes out on top because it is slightly faster. However comparing the stock 2003 Cobra to a stock 2010 Camaro SS is a very close competition with the edge going to the Cobra because they are slightly faster stock for stock. If you want to compare mods then game over because mod for mod a Camaro SS will not be able to keep up with a 2003 Cobra because those suckers are notorious for being able to get insane amounts of horse power when modding. Lets also not forget that not only does the Cobra have the same amount of horse powers as the SS but it also weighs around 300 pounds less. Stock for Stock their is no doubt that a Cobra is faster. I've seen stock specs for a 2003 Cobra with 4.5 seconds to 60 and 12.6 quartermile times.

http://www.fast-autos.net/

I do bet money that if you add a one of the biggest kenny bell chargers or whipple chargers plus the bolt ons vs. a 2010-2011 Camaro SS with a Supercharger that the Cobra is going to come out top.
i agree. When i compare my Cobra vs. an N/A car i always get the "but we're N/A" excuse, but when i compare them to my big block n/a car, they say stupid shit like "yeah well youre engine is almost 9liters,if i had a 9liter i would...." or "yeah but i get 28mpg on the freeway"......theres always people making excuses.
THE EVIL TW1N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 07:30 PM   #2153
danhr
BAMF SS
 
danhr's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Camaro 1SS A8
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ford City, PA
Posts: 3,023
Send a message via AIM to danhr
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N View Post
theres always people making ricer excuses.
fixed
__________________
2016 1SS A8: FBO + Circle D + P1X + Meth + Tuned by Pray Performance

Stock Longblock

800 SAE rwhp. 9.4 @ 145 mph.
danhr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 10:04 PM   #2154
ULTRAZLS1


 
ULTRAZLS1's Avatar
 
Drives: 14 Silverado LTZ Z71, 16 Camaro SS
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jackson, Michigan
Posts: 4,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N View Post
yeah that 4% is commonly thrown around because people used to bump their compression from 8:1 up to 9:1 back when combustion chambers were crappy designs so engines had low compression from the factory. Bumping up 1 point of compression from 10.5 to 11.5 is not going to gain nearly as much as bumping compression from 8:1 to 9:1. a 2% gain can still be worth it though, even if it is 100bucks. sheesh.



that might be true. But out of 5 people ive seen post on this site that are cammed only 3 are on the list. But out of those 5, ive seen 116mph , 115.5mph, 115.5mph, 118mph and 121mph....the 121mph run seems to stand out more than the others. thats all im really saying.



emotions are not on the same side as reason and logic so it only shows weakness in his arguments.
The one big gaping hole in that argument is simply this...

you say cam only like all cam only cars have the same cam. Depending on cam choice the horsepower could be 450rwhp all the way to 500 rwhp.

Hugger trapped 116 on street tires with a 2.5 60 ft. He is using a blower cam and making 470rwhp. He has no ported TB or intake. He is using a smallish cam without any supporting mods except exhaust and CAI.

G6x3 cams have made 500rwhp. Orange chevy made 485 (but also pointless because they are on different dynos)

Add 30hp to his build, better conditions, different set up etc, maybe a tire that he can actually accelerate with and 121 is not very hard to believe at all.

how many other g6x3 cam build so we have to compare his to? until then I do not consider it an anomaly. I consider it a very high horsepower cam and good condtions/driver/proper set up.

A g6x3 cam only build can make more power than a mild heads and cam set up. A lot of variables here you are just simply ignoring and blidly not giving the camaro its due...
ULTRAZLS1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2010, 06:39 AM   #2155
danhr
BAMF SS
 
danhr's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Camaro 1SS A8
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ford City, PA
Posts: 3,023
Send a message via AIM to danhr
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N View Post
you must be replying to a different post or poster because i never said working on your own car was a bad thing, only that time is not free. what IS hilarious is you thinking a 0.8increase in compression will turn an engine from weak sauce to a world beating monster. be realistic about it is all im saying.

ps...im looking at their prices and see they are MUCH higher than youre quoting them for.....

also with that being said, did that $1250 you say include valves?valvesprings?locks, retainers seals and valve job? there are always details people try to leave out when downplaying things....and i still dont believe most porters will mill your heads for free.
call rich and ask him how much a set of BARE Stage 2 L92's are.... it's 1250... Why would you want new valves if you can re-use your stock ones? The prices listed are assembled with new valves and with valve springs. Heaven forbid if you take the 15 mins it takes to take the disassemble your old heads when they are off and re-use the stock retainers and valves. Considering the assembled ones come with either stock ls3 valve or l92 valves that have been back cut.

and you are going to need valve springs anyways, regardless of doing heads or doing cam only... I dont see why you are taxing that price on a price for a decent heads... you are going to need them for cam only anyways? unless you are putting a cam in that can still utilize stock valve springs.....

and like i said... rich milled mine .020, for no extra charge.... I can scan a copy of my receipt for my heads if you want proof?

Cost of putting highly milled/ported heads on a cam only car:

$1250 = Cost of Bare West Coast Cylinder Heads Stage 2 L92's
$160 = Head gaskets and new head bolts
$100 (I remember it being a lot less, but I will round up for you) = Fly cutting tool
Re-use stock valves
You already should have a decent set of valve springs that came with your cam
Pushrod length will change, unless you put the heads on at the same time as the cam and measure it the first time around
-$300 = Can sell old heads, as Ls3/L92 heads are in HIGH demand
Total: $1210... we will round up to $1250 and factor in shipping.

So again.... 1250 for ~40 rwhp.... that's going to be damn near all across the board... not peak power btw, so we are looking at $31.25/hp. That's actually right on par, if not a little bit more, bang for your buck than headers + tune.
__________________
2016 1SS A8: FBO + Circle D + P1X + Meth + Tuned by Pray Performance

Stock Longblock

800 SAE rwhp. 9.4 @ 145 mph.

Last edited by danhr; 11-30-2010 at 07:03 AM.
danhr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2010, 11:43 AM   #2156
THE EVIL TW1N
Banned
 
Drives: 2003 Cobra Convertible
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 2,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by danhr View Post
call rich and ask him how much a set of BARE Stage 2 L92's are.... it's 1250... Why would you want new valves if you can re-use your stock ones? The prices listed are assembled with new valves and with valve springs.......


So again.... 1250 for ~40 rwhp.... that's going to be damn near all across the board... not peak power btw, so we are looking at $31.25/hp. That's actually right on par, if not a little bit more, bang for your buck than headers + tune.
Wow so the details get even longer. You started off with an unassembled BARE pair of heads. Most people out there do not like getting into that kind of endeavor like worrying about properly reassembling them. The fact that u only took 15minutes to do it might say more about why your car only dynoed 464rwhp with those mods than anything else. Not doing things correctly or with proper attention to detAil usually shows up in one way or another!
THE EVIL TW1N is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
camaro, camaro vs mustang, cobra, faster, mods, mustang, race

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll -- Camaro vs Mustang Supercar Shootout JusticePete Suspension / Brakes / Chassis 105 10-09-2013 02:18 PM
Does the v6 have enough power? cstproductions Camaro V6 LLT Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 305 08-29-2012 09:27 PM
Winner, winner - Jalopnik compares the Big 3 Number 3 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 31 04-17-2011 03:24 PM
Im sure this has been asked before.. But forgive my innocence :) gmag21 Suspension / Brakes / Chassis 23 02-21-2010 10:29 PM
The DEFINITIVE EXPLANATION OF CAMARO SUSPENSION, ISSUES, AND UPGRADES Info@PeddersUSA.com Suspension / Brakes / Chassis 106 10-19-2009 06:08 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.