[LesserO2Evils]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

I hope for their sake it doesn't turn into the 90s to 2009 again and ford just becomes complacent with the gt. if they are truly just worried about going global and maximum sales the performance could suffer.

It's a lose lose argument. They can't even agree on an image/ direction for the car because anything is better than admitting defeat.

Really starting to look like a bunch of cry babies with more excuses/ speculation than motor sports passion. It's sad. If the comparisons aren't flawed/ conspiracy then it's just that ford didn't try. How sad...

Whats "sad" is that they have 130 pages of DEFENDING THEMSELVES against a car that is not even IN PRODUCTION!!!(not to mention the other 3/4 threads to try to slam the Camaro) I consider that quite the compliment, actually. As ignorant as the flock are, even they can see the writing on the wall.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by LesserO2Evils

Whats "sad" is that they have 130 pages of DEFENDING THEMSELVES against a car that is not even IN PRODUCTION!!!(not to mention the other 3/4 threads to try to slam the Camaro) I consider that quite the compliment, actually. As ignorant as the flock are, even they can see the writing on the wall.

Exactly. The argument makes them look silly and confused.

If it were a camaro I would just be hoping for future improvements not thinking of childish excuses. Which some of them are.

I wonder which attitude would lead to better performance ?

Better tread lightly with what they wish for...

Do they want a watered down global sales success sucking camaro hind teet or a car that we have to sweat over? I think I know what they really want lol

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

Your opening post in this thread. You've ignored requests to explain why a chassis that was conceived to include the CTS-V LT4 and the V8 Camaro would be any more compromised than a Mustang designed for 4-6-8 cyl engines

From that you came to conclude that I have a preference for the Mustang over the Camaro? You're really reaching.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

From that you came to conclude that I have a preference for the Mustang over the Camaro? You're really reaching.

and your name... poop

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

and your name... poop

LOL! If you knew the reason behind the screenname, you'd understand that it is not a cut on the Gen5 z/28, but a reference to a former Camaro that I owned.

I see you and I do share a similar taste in vehicles though. I just recently sold my ZL1 and I owned a SIM 2006 GTO back in the day.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

LOL! If you knew the reason behind the screenname, you'd understand that it is not a cut on the Gen5 z/28, but a reference to a former Camaro that I owned.

I see you and I do share a similar taste in vehicles though. I just recently sold my ZL1 and I owned a SIM 2006 GTO back in the day.

It's all good. You must realize your opening comments are straight from the Mustang guy talking points. I really wanted you to defend them because they make no sense at all.

[68fbjjz109]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Ford didn't want to beat it's most direct competition in North America? And one of the biggest motor sports rivalries in the world?

Sounds like a cop out.

The very FIRST priority to most mustang fans is beating the camaro and visa versa.

Don't see how ignoring this is a smart move regardless of going global.

I think it's a little of both. They probably need more time as well.
If not we shouldn't see the handling improve on the gt above the alpha camaro. Fine with me lol

IF it ever does... Guess what... It will matter then lol. Sorry just sounds like an elementary excuse/ cop out because they got beat.

I wouldn't say it's a copout, Mustang as a brand and vehicle can do what ever it wants. It created a the vehicle segment, if it wants to change the rules it can.

Though I think it is way to early to say anyone got beat, You can sight the Motor Trend 1LE GTPP comparison all day long, and it's a valid one. But there are many other venues, public, private, amateur. Which show different results. Specifically SCCA FS class. Based of the last SSCA solo event I saw at MIS I would argue the GTPP might be easier to drive fast for us non Randy Pobst types.


Unfortunately emotions are running high right now, and frankly it's even more silly that people feel there will be serious issues with GM flexing the ATS to the Camaro.

Is there compromises? Likely.

I sit in strategic level meetings with major OEM clients, and vehicles are a system. You have to take a system level approach, and there is almost always compromises when you flex a vehicle like this.

However unlike the S550, the ATS is not a new platform. GM has been working with it for some time, which means they can flex it more efficiently, and the are very quick on Mid Cycle actions to rectify issues as we have seen the their trucks.

I know they claim 70 percent of the chassis is unique, I think we have to ask ourselves how do they define unique.

I looked at the ATS Body in White we competitively bench marked and it looks very similar to the Camaro teasers. Somewhere I have an image of the two roughly side by side.

I would say most unique panels are within the same family. Which is likely a good thing performance wise based on the known ATS capabilities. We know GM flexed suspension components versus pickup points. This is most certainly smart from a manufacturing standpoint.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by 68fbjjz109

I wouldn't say it's a copout, Mustang as a brand and vehicle can do what ever it wants. It created a the vehicle segment, if it wants to change the rules it can.

Though I think it is way to early to say anyone got beat, You can sight the Motor Trend 1LE GTPP comparison all day long, and it's a valid one. But there are many other venues, public, private, amateur. Which show different results. Specifically SCCA FS class. Based of the last SSCA solo event I saw at MIS I would argue the GTPP might be easier to drive fast for us non Randy Pobst types.


Unfortunately emotions are running high right now, and frankly it's even more silly that people feel there will be serious issues with GM flexing the ATS to the Camaro.

Is there compromises? Likely.

I sit in strategic level meetings with major OEM clients, and vehicles are a system. You have to take a system level approach, and there is almost always compromises when you flex a vehicle like this.

However unlike the S550, the ATS is not a new platform. GM has been working with it for some time, which means they can flex it more efficiently, and the are very quick on Mid Cycle actions to rectify issues as we have seen the their trucks.

I know they claim 70 percent of the chassis is unique, I think we have to ask ourselves how do they define unique.

I looked at the ATS Body in White we competitively bench marked and it looks very similar to the Camaro teasers. Somewhere I have an image of the two roughly side by side.

I would say most unique panels are within the same family. Which is likely a good thing performance wise based on the known ATS capabilities. We know GM flexed suspension components versus pickup points. This is most certainly smart from a manufacturing standpoint.

Only from a ford guy you could hear "redefining the segment" defined as offering a performance pack below your competitors last offering on a 3900 lb 6year old chassis.

If I said that on a mustang forum with reversed roles I would be laughed out of the forum.

Don't care what race series results are with different teams, setups and driver. No variables are even accounted for to make any kind of conclusion. The only accurate way is same driver same track same day. Period. I would be absolutely ashamed of myself for suggesting otherwise. What an insult to ones intelligence. I learned in 5th grade science class about accounting for variables etc before any solid conclusions can be made.

It is funny that a "compromised" 3900 lb chassis can go toe to toe with fords brand new from the ground up made just for the mustang. That's embarrassing. No wonder they call it redefining the segment instead lmao

[hotlap]

Want to talk about redefining a segment. This at the SS level!

In anticipation of expected hard driving, the Camaro SS is rated as track capable. That means that it can run for an entire tank of fuel at maximum speed around GM’s Milford Road Course without cooking its engine, transmission, differential, or brakes. That’s why it has so many radiators.

Mustang can talk about competing for BMW customers but that seem a reach. GM will attempt that with Cadillac. Pony cars are youth and middle America

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

Want to talk about redefining a segment. This at the SS level!
Mustang can talk about competing for BMW customers but that seem a reach. GM will attempt that with Cadillac. Pony cars are youth and middle America

And the youth have to be middle America as well. I visited a friend in college and my eyes really got opened...almost wish I hadn't seen it. It's pretty pathetic.

Flash your bmw keys you get layed. Show them you drive anything American and they walk away. Guys literally going around showing car keys and girls asking what they drove. I was blown away and left the party after 20 minutes. Never seen anything so retarded in my life.
My friend bought a ten year old beater bmw for no other reason lol. He could pick up more girls with a ten year old "Beamer" than someone else his equal in a corvette. It wasn't just him it was everywhere.

This was my experience in San Diego California in 2006 as a young man of 21.

Ford Mustang or camaro? Lmao. Lincoln or Cadillac has a much better chance. But if it's anything like ten years ago good luck...people with money don't drive our garbage. ( obviously some do I'm just talking about the big picture/reality of public perception)

[68fbjjz109]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

No variables are even accounted for to make any kind of conclusion. The only accurate way is same driver same track same day.

Only a Ford guy... I consider myself a domestic guy, I DD a turd Military Blazer it's a pile of shit, but it's awesome. Come over to 6g check my post history regarding the ATS, and the 6 gen Camaro. I prefer meaningful and rational conversation, over shit throwing.

So what about same tires, same wheels, comparable spring rates. I would put money that a GTPP with more aggressive spring rates, 10" wide front wheels, and 11" wide Rear wheels with the same 285 Eagle F1 G2's, running a 3.91 gear ratio would be a much different story. ****, Randy Pobst couldn't stop talking about how good the Chassis was...

That is how you empirically see what chassis is better. Tires are the most important part. That is one of the reason that tire was developed with GM.

Frankly I am really excited for the 6gen Camaro. But the fact it's easy to go fast on wider softer tires.

You can try to de-legitimatize racing, though I feel that's because it doesn't suite your point, and is a huge amount of data which shows both the previous chassis and the current is more then up to the task. Largely because variables are reduced.

The though fact is the vehicle functional objects are different. And where they are at in product lifecycle is different. The Camaro might be new, it's chassis isn't and GM won't make the same mistake the the 2010's hit the scene.

Many say that the 1LE is solely to win magazine covers. In my opinion it's the only Camaro I have considered purchasing myself. However again there is no getting away from there is a different focus with a 2000ish unit take rate for the 1LE, and approximate 30k Performance Pack take rate, and 4000 Boss Mustangs sold. Especially when the 1LE struggled against the Boss in racing, but that apparently isn't legitimate at all.

I won't discredit the MT comparison. It was still a good kill, even though the cars weren't as analogous as they could be.

You can say they avoided going after their domestic competition, as someone who works in the industry, sure maybe. Maybe it's a bait car. Or maybe it's how they make money, and they are quite good at it. With a 4000 to 6000 GT350 unit production run for the within a year of the 2015 Mustang releasing. The GT350 is paying for the 2017/18 Mustang Midcycle action.

Base GTPP come in around 3725, which is the same area I think the rather Aluminum intensive ATS based Camaro SS will come in at. And that car will turn heads make no mistake about it.

Body Structure wise, there is no Aluminum in the Mustang. Yet Ford has a huge capital investment with Aluminum, and is creative with composites, and has done light weighting on the GT350.

What happens when the Body Structure of the Mustang looks more like the ATS Camaro in terms of material composition? It's a shell game, coupled with different functional objectives.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by 68fbjjz109

Only a Ford guy... I consider myself a domestic guy, I DD a turd Military Blazer it's a pile of shit, but it's awesome. Come over to 6g check my post history regarding the ATS, and the 6 gen Camaro. I prefer meaningful and rational conversation, over shit throwing.

So what about same tires, same wheels, comparable spring rates. I would put money that a GTPP with more aggressive spring rates, 10" wide front wheels, and 11" wide Rear wheels with the same 285 Eagle F1 G2's, running a 3.91 gear ratio would be a much different story. ****, Randy Pobst couldn't stop talking about how good the Chassis was...

That is how you empirically see what chassis is better. Tires are the most important part. That is one of the reason that tire was developed with GM.

Frankly I am really excited for the 6gen Camaro. But the fact it's easy to go fast on wider softer tires.

You can try to de-legitimatize racing, though I feel that's because it doesn't suite your point, and is a huge amount of data which shows both the previous chassis and the current is more then up to the task. Largely because variables are reduced.

The though fact is the vehicle functional objects are different. And where they are at in product lifecycle is different. The Camaro might be new, it's chassis isn't and GM won't make the same mistake the the 2010's hit the scene.

Many say that the 1LE is solely to win magazine covers. In my opinion it's the only Camaro I have considered purchasing myself. However again there is no getting away from there is a different focus with a 2000ish unit take rate for the 1LE, and approximate 30k Performance Pack take rate, and 4000 Boss Mustangs sold. Especially when the 1LE struggled against the Boss in racing, but that apparently isn't legitimate at all.

I won't discredit the MT comparison. It was still a good kill, even though the cars weren't as analogous as they could be.

You can say they avoided going after their domestic competition, as someone who works in the industry, sure maybe. Maybe it's a bait car. Or maybe it's how they make money, and they are quite good at it. With a 4000 to 6000 GT350 unit production run for the within a year of the 2015 Mustang releasing. The GT350 is paying for the 2017/18 Mustang Midcycle action.

Base GTPP come in around 3725, which is the same area I think the rather Aluminum intensive ATS based Camaro SS will come in at. And that car will turn heads make no mistake about it.

Body Structure wise, there is no Aluminum in the Mustang. Yet Ford has a huge capital investment with Aluminum, and is creative with composites, and has done light weighting on the GT350.

What happens when the Body Structure of the Mustang looks more like the ATS Camaro in terms of material composition? It's a shell game, coupled with different functional objectives.

I won't throw shit if you stop asking me to believe in Santa Clause.

Give the mustang camaro parts and set up and see what happens? Take away variables so they run more equal but add in all different drivers? What the hell does this have to do with a 1le or gt a person drives off the lot? If the chassis ultimately has an edge after years of racing with equalized set ups and different drivers it is still flawed. Solo is a major reflection of driver and set up. As it is in any racing.

De- legitimize racing? I didn't know I was supposed to watch it and think it was nothing but the car ? If anything you are de- legitimizing racing... The cars drive themselves.

This thread just went full retard. I'm not wasting any more time with this. Someone else have at it.

I'm out

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by 68fbjjz109

Only a Ford guy... I consider myself a domestic guy, I DD a turd Military Blazer it's a pile of shit, but it's awesome. Come over to 6g check my post history regarding the ATS, and the 6 gen Camaro. I prefer meaningful and rational conversation, over shit throwing.

So what about same tires, same wheels, comparable spring rates. I would put money that a GTPP with more aggressive spring rates, 10" wide front wheels, and 11" wide Rear wheels with the same 285 Eagle F1 G2's, running a 3.91 gear ratio would be a much different story. ****, Randy Pobst couldn't stop talking about how good the Chassis was...

That is how you empirically see what chassis is better. Tires are the most important part. That is one of the reason that tire was developed with GM.

Frankly I am really excited for the 6gen Camaro. But the fact it's easy to go fast on wider softer tires.

You can try to de-legitimatize racing, though I feel that's because it doesn't suite your point, and is a huge amount of data which shows both the previous chassis and the current is more then up to the task. Largely because variables are reduced.

The though fact is the vehicle functional objects are different. And where they are at in product lifecycle is different. The Camaro might be new, it's chassis isn't and GM won't make the same mistake the the 2010's hit the scene.

Many say that the 1LE is solely to win magazine covers. In my opinion it's the only Camaro I have considered purchasing myself. However again there is no getting away from there is a different focus with a 2000ish unit take rate for the 1LE, and approximate 30k Performance Pack take rate, and 4000 Boss Mustangs sold. Especially when the 1LE struggled against the Boss in racing, but that apparently isn't legitimate at all.

I won't discredit the MT comparison. It was still a good kill, even though the cars weren't as analogous as they could be.

You can say they avoided going after their domestic competition, as someone who works in the industry, sure maybe. Maybe it's a bait car. Or maybe it's how they make money, and they are quite good at it. With a 4000 to 6000 GT350 unit production run for the within a year of the 2015 Mustang releasing. The GT350 is paying for the 2017/18 Mustang Midcycle action.

Base GTPP come in around 3725, which is the same area I think the rather Aluminum intensive ATS based Camaro SS will come in at. And that car will turn heads make no mistake about it.

Body Structure wise, there is no Aluminum in the Mustang. Yet Ford has a huge capital investment with Aluminum, and is creative with composites, and has done light weighting on the GT350.

What happens when the Body Structure of the Mustang looks more like the ATS Camaro in terms of material composition? It's a shell game, coupled with different functional objectives.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by 68fbjjz109

Only a Ford guy... I consider myself a domestic guy, I DD a turd Military Blazer it's a pile of shit, but it's awesome. Come over to 6g check my post history regarding the ATS, and the 6 gen Camaro. I prefer meaningful and rational conversation, over shit throwing.

So what about same tires, same wheels, comparable spring rates. I would put money that a GTPP with more aggressive spring rates, 10" wide front wheels, and 11" wide Rear wheels with the same 285 Eagle F1 G2's, running a 3.91 gear ratio would be a much different story. ****, Randy Pobst couldn't stop talking about how good the Chassis was...

That is how you empirically see what chassis is better. Tires are the most important part. That is one of the reason that tire was developed with GM.

Frankly I am really excited for the 6gen Camaro. But the fact it's easy to go fast on wider softer tires.

You can try to de-legitimatize racing, though I feel that's because it doesn't suite your point, and is a huge amount of data which shows both the previous chassis and the current is more then up to the task. Largely because variables are reduced.

The though fact is the vehicle functional objects are different. And where they are at in product lifecycle is different. The Camaro might be new, it's chassis isn't and GM won't make the same mistake the the 2010's hit the scene.

Many say that the 1LE is solely to win magazine covers. In my opinion it's the only Camaro I have considered purchasing myself. However again there is no getting away from there is a different focus with a 2000ish unit take rate for the 1LE, and approximate 30k Performance Pack take rate, and 4000 Boss Mustangs sold. Especially when the 1LE struggled against the Boss in racing, but that apparently isn't legitimate at all.

I won't discredit the MT comparison. It was still a good kill, even though the cars weren't as analogous as they could be.

You can say they avoided going after their domestic competition, as someone who works in the industry, sure maybe. Maybe it's a bait car. Or maybe it's how they make money, and they are quite good at it. With a 4000 to 6000 GT350 unit production run for the within a year of the 2015 Mustang releasing. The GT350 is paying for the 2017/18 Mustang Midcycle action.

Base GTPP come in around 3725, which is the same area I think the rather Aluminum intensive ATS based Camaro SS will come in at. And that car will turn heads make no mistake about it.

Body Structure wise, there is no Aluminum in the Mustang. Yet Ford has a huge capital investment with Aluminum, and is creative with composites, and has done light weighting on the GT350.

What happens when the Body Structure of the Mustang looks more like the ATS Camaro in terms of material composition? It's a shell game, coupled with different functional objectives.

Soooooo....what do you think of thePill?