will there be a Z28 Camaro

[truth411]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

It is possible (I don't think it will happen but ... ) GM has been accelerating its product cadence lately. Not too long ago, 8-10 years was a typical life cycle, they're now more like 5 or 6, even for popular models. So its not out of the realm of possibility for GM to redesign a car after only 4 model years. Plus, Camaro sales will drop off dramatically when the next generation of Mustang hits the streets

Meh... They said the same thing when the 5.0 came along, and it didn't happen. It depends on what the next gen mustang will be, but I doubt it will have the amount of swag the current camaro has, which is basically a life size hot wheels car. Besides we know the camaro is getting some revisions for 2014 MY so the camaro getting a gen V v8 is a strong possibility.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by truth411

Meh... They said the same thing when the 5.0 came along, and it didn't happen. It depends on what the next gen mustang will be, but I doubt it will have the amount of swag the current camaro has, which is basically a life size hot wheels car. Besides we know the camaro is getting some revisions for 2014 MY so the camaro getting a gen V v8 is a strong possibility.

The 5.0 (and the new V6) gave the Mustang a slight performance edge, yet many feel the cosmetic changes from 2009 to 2010 were a step in the wrong direction (and most felt the 2010 Camaro looked better than the 2009 Mustang, let alone the 2010+ cars). The Camaro was still new at that point & there were plenty of people that loved how it looks. Fast forward to 2014 and Ford will no doubt offer up a better looking Mustang thats a bit sportier yet returns even better fuel economy. By then, the Camaro's bold styling will probably be feeling a little stale, the performance gap will have widened, the gap in fuel economy will be getting noticeable, people who were buying it to get noticed will stop (since there will be a few hundred thousand on the roads), and so on. Add up enough little things and suddenly you've got something big.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The 5.0 (and the new V6) gave the Mustang a slight performance edge, yet many feel the cosmetic changes from 2009 to 2010 were a step in the wrong direction (and most felt the 2010 Camaro looked better than the 2009 Mustang, let alone the 2010+ cars). The Camaro was still new at that point & there were plenty of people that loved how it looks. Fast forward to 2014 and Ford will no doubt offer up a better looking Mustang thats a bit sportier yet returns even better fuel economy. By then, the Camaro's bold styling will probably be feeling a little stale, the performance gap will have widened, the gap in fuel economy will be getting noticeable, people who were buying it to get noticed will stop (since there will be a few hundred thousand on the roads), and so on. Add up enough little things and suddenly you've got something big.

In this segment, "proper" style and performance are paramount!

The Camaro 'Vert keeps alive the "newness". So will the ZL1. And a gen-oo-wine Z/28 would have folks breakin' down Dealers' doors! But, at some point, a "properly freshened, 'modernized' Camaro" will be a MUST. Figure MY-'15, early '14...

[PYROLYSIS]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The 5.0 (and the new V6) gave the Mustang a slight performance edge, yet many feel the cosmetic changes from 2009 to 2010 were a step in the wrong direction (and most felt the 2010 Camaro looked better than the 2009 Mustang, let alone the 2010+ cars). The Camaro was still new at that point & there were plenty of people that loved how it looks. Fast forward to 2014 and Ford will no doubt offer up a better looking Mustang thats a bit sportier yet returns even better fuel economy. By then, the Camaro's bold styling will probably be feeling a little stale, the performance gap will have widened, the gap in fuel economy will be getting noticeable, people who were buying it to get noticed will stop (since there will be a few hundred thousand on the roads), and so on. Add up enough little things and suddenly you've got something big.

Not that I can ever reallt admit that I like the looks of a mustang, I'm one that thinks the look mildly improved in 2011.

I will be very upset if they put a gen 5 v-8 in the fifth gen a year or two after I get mine. Though to me, that would be pretty close to the ultimate SS if they decided to go that direction. I think they will have a hard time coming out with a more successful body style. As a lifelong Camaro fan though, I will be watching and waiting with faith that they will come through.

[thePill]

I can't speak for everyone in the military but a majority of military car enthusiast own Mustang's. When I received my 2011 5.0 it was as if I had purchased a GT500 and attracted quite a bit of local attention, now there are countless 5.0s in the general area. I instantly loved the 2005 Mustang and was ready to buy one from Military New Car Sales in Japan but I could not receive delivery there... I looked at several other cars before looking at the 2010 updated body and I was very impressed they improved the original design. The 2005-2009 strongly favored the 1964-1967 cars and in my eyes screamed classic. The 2010-(2012's) with the slightest touches to make it more aggressive captured me completely. I had always wanted a 1969 Mustang and the 2010+ cars had really spark some memories of the one my neighbor had.... I had inside info that there was a possibility of a new V8 so I waited... 8 months later I ordered my 2011 5.0 the same day Ford released the specs of the Coyote. I can only imagine that the 2013 will resemble the 1970 and close out the retro theme Mustang's forever but the timeline Ford laid out since 2005 was very interesting and has reinvented the market once again... Although, the market for retro vehicles are nearing the end of its long lifespan..

It is unfortunate that the Camaro's appeal is losing interest only after two years, sales of all three pony cars are less than impressive. The long awaited Camaro convertible was not as widely accepted as I thought it would have been and already we can see the production of the Camaro being drawn back.. no doubt anticipating a sales slump this fall/winter. The ZL1 won't do anything for sales and if there is to be a 5th Gen Z28, and I have serious doubts now that there will be one, the impact it will have will be merely to stabilize slumping sales. More R&D on a 5th Gen too late in the game I'm afraid with little or no impact for the brand. Where does GM go with the Camaro for a mid model refresh? any modifications to the front fascia will likely be met with distain by the original owners and possibly not attracting the ever important "NEW" car buyers. The 5th Gen is just stepping into the territory that the S197 has been in for the last 3 years, those who wanted one, already has one and those who couldn't afford one new will buy one used... Can the 5th Gen hold out until the scheduled redesign? I would suggest a 2017 50th Anniversary model but seeing that the 2014 Mustang will outperform the current S197 (the Boss 302 being the benchmark), is Chevy willing to let Ford run circles around the Camaro for 3-4 years? Or should GM push out a 6th Gen and cut their losses on the 5th Gen. Doing so could greatly hinder the research and development of the 6th Gen as funds generated from previous models are funneled into that department. While some would have you believe the sales are strong, reality is that the 5th Gen is not aging well... this was a concern I had after the first year of sales. Some will argue that the economy was drastically better in 2005 when the Mustang was released nor did it have any type of direct competition. This is true, but a poor economy doesn't reduce the initial cost of R&D in which GM is still sitting on a pile of unpaid balances from a fresh model, that started from scratch with no prior generation to fund its R&D.

Will the new Mustang sell well? most likely and being introduced in Europe, Asia and Australia (especially Aussie) with a Ecoboost option, numbers could reach 2005 numbers easy (1964 and 1974 numbers would be better). With Flat Rock cleaning out the Mazda side of the plant this leaves room for massive production and Ford intends to use it... There was potential for the Z28 but it seems like GM takes 2-3 years to do anything anymore. I imagine the ZL1 cost quite a bit of money to develop and from the reports, it seems it will be loaded down with technology and heavy duty components making it "out of reach" to the average buyer. The Z28 would have been perfect for a high performance mid level option and for $40k, most of the SS buyers would have obviously opted for the Z28 over the SS. Of course this would do more damage to the standard SS sales.. or if you look at the V6 to V8 ratio, maybe the Z28 would be overshadowed by the V6 altogether...

[boxmonkeyracing]

pill, I have to disagree on a couple of points and give a counter view on some sales issues.

first. being in the military I have to say it's the crowd you run with. I have known more F-body guys than mustang fans. but for the most part each respected the other group. you did have a couple jack asses but hey that's normal.

as for the sales numbers. the economy still sucks. people that want these cars can't honestly afford them for the most part. the ones that can are buying. I honestly believe if we weren't so close to 10% unemployment more sports cars would sale. the camaro is still selling more then the mustang and that's even with a newer version of the stang out. the verts are for people that don't have to worry about cold, or a second car. it's never going to sale well compared to coupes. If I could afford one I'd buy a vert right now. but trying to pay off debt and save for a possible move soon (owning a house and pcsing sucks) it is impossible to afford another car (currently own a duramax and a bike).

I believe people are saving their money more if they have it. if they don't then obviously they aren't buying. but to say the 5th gen isn't aging well is. . .lets say not exactly right.

[BoostedX2]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

pill, I have to disagree on a couple of points and give a counter view on some sales issues.

first. being in the military I have to say it's the crowd you run with. I have known more F-body guys than mustang fans. but for the most part each respected the other group. you did have a couple jack asses but hey that's normal.

as for the sales numbers. the economy still sucks. people that want these cars can't honestly afford them for the most part. the ones that can are buying. I honestly believe if we weren't so close to 10% unemployment more sports cars would sale. the camaro is still selling more then the mustang and that's even with a newer version of the stang out. the verts are for people that don't have to worry about cold, or a second car. it's never going to sale well compared to coupes. If I could afford one I'd buy a vert right now. but trying to pay off debt and save for a possible move soon (owning a house and pcsing sucks) it is impossible to afford another car (currently own a duramax and a bike).

I believe people are saving their money more if they have it. if they don't then obviously they aren't buying. but to say the 5th gen isn't aging well is. . .lets say not exactly right.

I agree--the military in this area prefer Camaros hands down..

[Cam#7]

I think "The Pill" is right on about the future of sales for the pony cars. For those of us that drive Gen5s, will be loyal forever to this model. It brought back the Camaro !!! The style will always be stunning and never be consider bland.

Buttttttttttttt, as much as we hate the trade magazines how they pound the visibilty issues.......... This car isn't for everyone.

I was encouraged by a recent poll I did on another thread to get a sense of how many repeat Camaro owners we had compared to first time Camaro owners. There was way more first time owners, of course there's probably a heavier balance of younger people using this forum. But you have to wonder how many more Gen5 buyers are left over the next few years? There's plenty of us waiting to trade up for a Z-28, but V6 coupe sales is were the battle has to be won to still produce high end models.

The next Mustang and Camaro will somehow zero in on the world market with a redefined pony car. Still plenty of style, power, and RWD.

[thePill]

I live in the Kaiserslaughtern area which is the largest US community outside of the US and is all DoD civilian or active duty (about 50,000 people). The Mustang population here is large, the largest Mustang club here has 2600 members with Mustangs. There are a handful of F-body cars here but for the most part, the Mustang is the main military enthusiast car (that actually have cars, not just wish they did). There are about a dozen military Mustang clubs in Germany alone but Mighty Mustang is the largest.

Anyone in the area knows Phil, a German that makes his living modding Mustangs around here. My squadron alone has a large Mustang following...

There would of course be members on here that would hope that our military preferred the Camaro over the other but the fact is that it is just plain easier to get a Mustang overseas than a Camaro and the availability up to 2010 was zero...

[Cam#7]

One other point on sales. The Chevy dealers have to love selling Gen5s. Just think about all the after market mods everyone does. That has to go a long ways to helping pay off the Gen5 platform.

[Blizzard]

Interesting note, just watched the Special Editions video from Chevy and the show the LS7 SEMA concept and the Z28 badge design. Now why would they do that?

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by thePill

I live in the Kaiserslaughtern area which is the largest US community outside of the US and is all DoD civilian or active duty (about 50,000 people). The Mustang population here is large, the largest Mustang club here has 2600 members with Mustangs. There are a handful of F-body cars here but for the most part, the Mustang is the main military enthusiast car (that actually have cars, not just wish they did). There are about a dozen military Mustang clubs in Germany alone but Mighty Mustang is the largest.

Anyone in the area knows Phil, a German that makes his living modding Mustangs around here. My squadron alone has a large Mustang following...

There would of course be members on here that would hope that our military preferred the Camaro over the other but the fact is that it is just plain easier to get a Mustang overseas than a Camaro and the availability up to 2010 was zero...

quick point. GM is not apart of aafes military car sales. ford is. so more people will have better access to mustangs (newer). One reason I would look into a mustang if I was in germany. if access was better then there would more than likely be more camaros there. in the deployed location that's one thing people do is buy new cars through aafes. I'm not saying that the camaro would eclipse the stang but you would see a lot more balance.

[LOWDOWN]

Pill, the Mustang has enjoyed a very enviable history in SALES as well as a loyal following: It's been sold continuously for 48 calendar years, '64-'11 inclusive. And, with perhaps a half-dozen annual exceptions, has outsold the Camaro. More potential "heritage" than Camaro, and therefore a larger following...everywhere. So, whether called Mustang or T-5, there's a massive owner body out there.

As to the COPO concept, and Z/28 badges, it just makes good sense...

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by thePill

I can't speak for everyone in the military but a majority of military car enthusiast own Mustang's. When I received my 2011 5.0 it was as if I had purchased a GT500 and attracted quite a bit of local attention, now there are countless 5.0s in the general area. I instantly loved the 2005 Mustang and was ready to buy one from Military New Car Sales in Japan but I could not receive delivery there... I looked at several other cars before looking at the 2010 updated body and I was very impressed they improved the original design. The 2005-2009 strongly favored the 1964-1967 cars and in my eyes screamed classic. The 2010-(2012's) with the slightest touches to make it more aggressive captured me completely. I had always wanted a 1969 Mustang and the 2010+ cars had really spark some memories of the one my neighbor had.... I had inside info that there was a possibility of a new V8 so I waited... 8 months later I ordered my 2011 5.0 the same day Ford released the specs of the Coyote. I can only imagine that the 2013 will resemble the 1970 and close out the retro theme Mustang's forever but the timeline Ford laid out since 2005 was very interesting and has reinvented the market once again... Although, the market for retro vehicles are nearing the end of its long lifespan..

It is unfortunate that the Camaro's appeal is losing interest only after two years, sales of all three pony cars are less than impressive. The long awaited Camaro convertible was not as widely accepted as I thought it would have been and already we can see the production of the Camaro being drawn back.. no doubt anticipating a sales slump this fall/winter. The ZL1 won't do anything for sales and if there is to be a 5th Gen Z28, and I have serious doubts now that there will be one, the impact it will have will be merely to stabilize slumping sales. More R&D on a 5th Gen too late in the game I'm afraid with little or no impact for the brand. Where does GM go with the Camaro for a mid model refresh? any modifications to the front fascia will likely be met with distain by the original owners and possibly not attracting the ever important "NEW" car buyers. The 5th Gen is just stepping into the territory that the S197 has been in for the last 3 years, those who wanted one, already has one and those who couldn't afford one new will buy one used... Can the 5th Gen hold out until the scheduled redesign? I would suggest a 2017 50th Anniversary model but seeing that the 2014 Mustang will outperform the current S197 (the Boss 302 being the benchmark), is Chevy willing to let Ford run circles around the Camaro for 3-4 years? Or should GM push out a 6th Gen and cut their losses on the 5th Gen. Doing so could greatly hinder the research and development of the 6th Gen as funds generated from previous models are funneled into that department. While some would have you believe the sales are strong, reality is that the 5th Gen is not aging well... this was a concern I had after the first year of sales. Some will argue that the economy was drastically better in 2005 when the Mustang was released nor did it have any type of direct competition. This is true, but a poor economy doesn't reduce the initial cost of R&D in which GM is still sitting on a pile of unpaid balances from a fresh model, that started from scratch with no prior generation to fund its R&D.

Will the new Mustang sell well? most likely and being introduced in Europe, Asia and Australia (especially Aussie) with a Ecoboost option, numbers could reach 2005 numbers easy (1964 and 1974 numbers would be better). With Flat Rock cleaning out the Mazda side of the plant this leaves room for massive production and Ford intends to use it... There was potential for the Z28 but it seems like GM takes 2-3 years to do anything anymore. I imagine the ZL1 cost quite a bit of money to develop and from the reports, it seems it will be loaded down with technology and heavy duty components making it "out of reach" to the average buyer. The Z28 would have been perfect for a high performance mid level option and for $40k, most of the SS buyers would have obviously opted for the Z28 over the SS. Of course this would do more damage to the standard SS sales.. or if you look at the V6 to V8 ratio, maybe the Z28 would be overshadowed by the V6 altogether...

Pill,
I usually enjoy your respectful perspective on things; usually just off center towards the Mustang, however i gotta call you out on this as pure Fanboy propaganda!