dont step foot in cleveland.......

[shawn18]

Originally Posted by 2010 SSRS

Lebron's Cleveland Jerseys Are selling pretty cheap.

I hear they are good fire starters!

[Silverbullett]

Originally Posted by AntzV

In the words of Dan Gilbert;

"I PERSONALLY GUARANTEE THAT THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS WILL WIN AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BEFORE THE SELF-TITLED FORMER ‘KING’ WINS ONE"

:belly roll:


How can they possibly win a title when there whole team (Lebron James) went to the HEAT?????????????

[2010 SSRS]

Originally Posted by shawn18

I hear they are good fire starters!

[BlessedChef10]

The reason they call him King James is from the King James reference to the bible...A bit blasphemous if you ask me...But the Real King of the NBA is the G.O.A.T. Michael!!!

[All-Or-Nothing]

Originally Posted by 2010_5thgen

Lebron James....you can rot in hell....... i hope you end up being the biggest wash in the history of the NBA. you are disowned by not only Cleveland, but also the state of Ohio. You will regret your desicion. look for me court side, Cavs vs. heat wearing a shirt saying "FU LBJ"........ im absolutely discusted by your desicion. not much more to say than F@$K YOU! your an embarassment to Northeast Ohio.

[Silverado]

Originally Posted by BlessedChef10

The reason they call him King James is from the King James reference to the bible...A bit blasphemous if you ask me...But the Real King of the NBA is the G.O.A.T. Michael!!!

I've always hated that nickname, for that very reason.....

However, MJ as the greatest? Are you really going to start that argument? Okay, I'll play....greatest at what?

Championships? MJ has 6, Russell has 11, crap, Kobe has 5 and could still pick up another 1 or 2

Scoring? Kareem leads all-time scoring by a large margin.
Most points in one game? MJ's high is 63. Wilt still has the record at 100, Kobe has scored 81. David Robinson scored 71, and Elgin Baylor got to the high 60's.

Rebounding? MJ was a solid rebounder for a wing man, I'll give him that....but Wilt averaged over 50rpg FOR A SEASON. Jordan never won a rebounding title.

Assists? MJ was a decent passer (when he finally did it), but nowhere near as good as Stockton, Magic, or Mark Jackson.

Triple doubles? Sure Jordan got some, but Oscar Robinson averaged a triple double for an entire season.

How about position? Was Jordan the best point guard or center? No, he didn't play those positions? He wasn't even the most versatile in positions....remember that rookie who played all 5 positions in an NBA finals game? Yeah, it was Magic Johnson.

So, MJ doesn't have the most titles, isn't the scoring leader, rebound leader, assist leader, steals leader, etc. He didn't have the best overall stats, and wasn't the most versatile player in the league. So, what makes him the greatest?

Sorry, but you can't claim any one player is the greatest in any team sport. Without the rest of the team, as good as he was, even MJ wouldn't have won any titles.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Silverado

I've always hated that nickname, for that very reason.....

However, MJ as the greatest? Are you really going to start that argument? Okay, I'll play....greatest at what?

Championships? MJ has 6, Russell has 11, crap, Kobe has 5 and could still pick up another 1 or 2

Scoring? Kareem leads all-time scoring by a large margin.
Most points in one game? MJ's high is 63. Wilt still has the record at 100, Kobe has scored 81. David Robinson scored 71, and Elgin Baylor got to the high 60's.

Rebounding? MJ was a solid rebounder for a wing man, I'll give him that....but Wilt averaged over 50rpg FOR A SEASON. Jordan never won a rebounding title.

Assists? MJ was a decent passer (when he finally did it), but nowhere near as good as Stockton, Magic, or Mark Jackson.

Triple doubles? Sure Jordan got some, but Oscar Robinson averaged a triple double for an entire season.

How about position? Was Jordan the best point guard or center? No, he didn't play those positions? He wasn't even the most versatile in positions....remember that rookie who played all 5 positions in an NBA finals game? Yeah, it was Magic Johnson.

So, MJ doesn't have the most titles, isn't the scoring leader, rebound leader, assist leader, steals leader, etc. He didn't have the best overall stats, and wasn't the most versatile player in the league. So, what makes him the greatest?

Sorry, but you can't claim any one player is the greatest in any team sport. Without the rest of the team, as good as he was, even MJ wouldn't have won any titles.

To bad Russell, Kareem, Wilt, David Robinson, Baylor, Stockton, Magic, Jackson, and Oscar Robinson couldn't be one player...

[Silverado]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

To bad Russell, Kareem, Wilt, David Robinson, Baylor, Stockton, Magic, Jackson, and Oscar Robinson couldn't be one player...

Obviously you missed the point entirely.

How can any one player be named the greatest of all time without putting some sort of qualifier on it?

I mean if you say the greatest champion of all time or the greatest scorer, then a conversation can be had and maybe even an consensus can be reached.

But, to just say one player is the greatest of all time in a team sport....sorry, it can't be done. As I pointed out, in his sport (because he certainly wasn't the greatest of all time in baseball), Jordan wasn't the greatest in any of the statistical categories. Was he good? Absolutely. When the game was on the line, who did you want to have the ball in his hands? Jordan, no doubt (well, the Bulls did anyway, no one else wanted him to have it). Those kinds of things make a player great. Consistently winning makes a player great. Leading makes a player great. Greatest of all time though....that's not something you can really determine.

[d69chris]

Lakers in 6 this year!

You heard it here first.

[Silverado]

I hope so....lol.

Over who though? You think Miami gets there?

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Silverado

Obviously you missed the point entirely.

How can any one player be named the greatest of all time without putting some sort of qualifier on it?

I mean if you say the greatest champion of all time or the greatest scorer, then a conversation can be had and maybe even an consensus can be reached.

But, to just say one player is the greatest of all time in a team sport....sorry, it can't be done. As I pointed out, in his sport (because he certainly wasn't the greatest of all time in baseball), Jordan wasn't the greatest in any of the statistical categories. Was he good? Absolutely. When the game was on the line, who did you want to have the ball in his hands? Jordan, no doubt (well, the Bulls did anyway, no one else wanted him to have it). Those kinds of things make a player great. Consistently winning makes a player great. Leading makes a player great. Greatest of all time though....that's not something you can really determine.

I understand what you are saying. There really isn't a greatest of all time, except for peoples own personal views. Also, I think you have to look past stats a little, because as you said, it's a team game. He just had the "it" factor. He knew how to win. Which is all that really matters. But if you do want stats, Jordan was 5X MVP, 10 seasons out of 15 with the most points in the league, and of course the 6 rings. If you look at his resume, I don't think you'll find anyone elses that surpasses him, overall. Sure, there are people that hold records that he doesn't, but that doesn't make them better than Jordan, but there is a good case that Jordan is better then the players with individual records.

[Silverado]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

I understand what you are saying. There really isn't a greatest of all time, except for peoples own personal views. Also, I think you have to look past stats a little, because as you said, it's a team game. He just had the "it" factor. He knew how to win. Which is all that really matters. But if you do want stats, Jordan was 5X MVP, 10 seasons out of 15 with the most points in the league, and of course the 6 rings. If you look at his resume, I don't think you'll find anyone elses that surpasses him, overall. Sure, there are people that hold records that he doesn't, but that doesn't make them better than Jordan, but there is a good case that Jordan is better then the players with individual records.

Using your "criteria" though...isn't Russell better than Jordan? I mean Russell, like Jordan, was a 5 time MVP, but he has 11 rings....rebounding and blocks leader as often as Jordan was the scoring leader. So, just because Jordan scores more means he's better? I don't think so. I mean Jordan only won those titles because of the defense of guys like Pippen and Rodman and the rebounding of guys like Rodman and Grant.

(And, for the record....while Jordan's 2 separate 3-peats are impressive....Russell has...well, what do you call it when you win 8 yrs in a row?)

Kareem, a 6 time MVP, 1 more than MJ, with 6 rings like Jordan.....leads the league in most points scored....EVER....all kinds of records for him.

9 guys have more rings than Jordan, 2 guys have the same number as him....

I have never once said Jordan wasn't a clutch player who frequently made the right play to win a game. But then why isn't Kobe the greatest? How about Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Iverson, Billups, Magic, Worthy, Bird, West, Olajuwon, Marevich, Wilt, Russell, etc....the list could go on for a long time.

It comes down to this.....

In a team sport, there cannot possibly be "the greatest of all time"....sure, people have opinions, but it isn't quantifiable. In solo sports, you could more easily determine a greatest because their success isn't necessarily dependent on others. Even then, someone may have the most cups/rings/trophies/plaques/etc, but they might still not be the greatest of all time....

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Silverado

Using your "criteria" though...isn't Russell better than Jordan? I mean Russell, like Jordan, was a 5 time MVP, but he has 11 rings....rebounding and blocks leader as often as Jordan was the scoring leader. So, just because Jordan scores more means he's better? I don't think so. I mean Jordan only won those titles because of the defense of guys like Pippen and Rodman and the rebounding of guys like Rodman and Grant.

(And, for the record....while Jordan's 2 separate 3-peats are impressive....Russell has...well, what do you call it when you win 8 yrs in a row?)

Kareem, a 6 time MVP, 1 more than MJ, with 6 rings like Jordan.....leads the league in most points scored....EVER....all kinds of records for him.

9 guys have more rings than Jordan, 2 guys have the same number as him....

I have never once said Jordan wasn't a clutch player who frequently made the right play to win a game. But then why isn't Kobe the greatest? How about Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Iverson, Billups, Magic, Worthy, Bird, West, Olajuwon, Marevich, Wilt, Russell, etc....the list could go on for a long time.

It comes down to this.....

In a team sport, there cannot possibly be "the greatest of all time"....sure, people have opinions, but it isn't quantifiable. In solo sports, you could more easily determine a greatest because their success isn't necessarily dependent on others. Even then, someone may have the most cups/rings/trophies/plaques/etc, but they might still not be the greatest of all time....

So Russell has 11 rings with 5 MVP's. I think that shows that Russell had more help in winning then Jordan. Maybe that's just me. And to say Jordan won his titles ONLY because of defensive play, is absurd. I suppose when Jordan left the defense must have left too, since they took an exit in round two the year Jordan retired. And then magically came back when Jordan came back.

And yes, Kareem was a great player as well. And he does have records to back it up. But Jordan also has a few. Like highest scoring average per game throughout his career in the regular season and finals, 11 seasons leading league in scoring, 10 seasons leading league in points per game, Most finals MVP(6), all defensive first team(9), etc.

You are vastly down playing Jordan, imo. I think most people consider Jordan the best because they weren't alive or didn't watch basketball when wilt played. Who is arguable as good, or better than Jordan.

[Silverado]

LOL...slight misspeak there....I was saying that Jordan needed the defense from those other guys so that I could make the connection to Russell's defensive rather than offensive approach to the game.

I agree that many people consider Jordan the greatest because they are uniformed about the past greats (and because they get their sports info from 20 second ESPN sound clips). Which is funny....greatest of all time....implies the consideration of past and present....but....

The funny thing is, I also think people pick Jordan because if you ask for the greatest scorer....Kareem has that record (Wilt on highest game, and highest season average) overall. Greatest assist man....Stockton, Magic, Jackson. Greatest rebounder....Olajuwon, Rodman, Chamberlain, Russell. Most MVP's, most rings, most anything.....Jordan doesn't come out on top in any of them and yet people pick him.

I am not downplaying Jordan. He was great. And I don't take away from his accomplishments at all.....I just don't think you can pick a greatest of all time.