13-year-old with pellet gun shot 7 times...

[Envy]

Originally Posted by Spartan01

2- Have you ever heard of the term "Active Shooter?" Post Columbine, the rules changed. Police used to secure the scene and wait for backup. Now, under the training for active shooter, you are SUPPOSED to engage ASAFP in order to minimize civilian casualties.
The fact is NONE OF US WERE THERE, so we we only have eyewitness accounts from the police, speculation, innuendo, hype, hyperbole, and gross exageration by the media to know what really happened.

The problem with that is there was NO "active shooter" until the officer fired his gun.

[PoorMansCamaro]

at that moment, you had a hand gun vs what was thought to be an AK. lol

edit: I don't think you want to wait for someone to fire an AK at you, with you having a hand gun.

[90503]

I get a kick out of watching the show "Cops" occasionally....Nearly every suspect is told to do five different things by five different officers at the same time...Don't move, get down, turn around, hands in the air, on your knees, etc., etc., All at the same time....lol....Then, of course, he's additionally charged with resisting arrest...

[Spartan01]

Originally Posted by Envy

The problem with that is there was NO "active shooter" until the officer fired his gun.

Seriously? Are you serious? Are you trolling?
This is going back to what I said about those who have not walked the walk armchair quarterbacking the entire fiasco.

First of all, you were not there. Your entire knowledge of the situation, and mine as well, is at BEST second hand, and most likely much further removed than that.

Secondly, we all know that the media distorts these events for their own ends, to sell add space.

Third, the training is called "Active Shooter," and encompasses all situations where a suspect has a weapon and may harm themselves and others. The rules for engaging an "armed," suspect changed after the implementation of this program.

Fourth, could the dead kid, as it has been reported, actually have harmed the officers? No.
Is there anyway they could have known that at the time? No.


Another thing that those who have been there can attest to;
incidents occur on a semi regular basis where police respond to a scene,
the suspect is armed,
the police order the suspect to drop the weapon,
The suspect turns around, weapon still in hand,
The police open fire.
Many undercover and off duty officers are slain or wounded by fellow cops in this manner.
Most people do not realize that if you are simply holding a weapon, that can be construed as a legal threat. This is why the 21 foot rule applies to police officers, because if you have a knife and charge from a distance of less than 21 feet, more than likely I will not be able to draw, and effectively deploy my weapon before you are upon me.

Our academy class actually had drills on what to do when confronted from behind with the words "Police! drop the weapon!" You drop whatever you are holding and put your hands up immediately.

More than likely, this is close to what happened. The poor kid simply turned around while still holding the weapon.


But you are right Envy, it is the fault of the police. If only they had loaded their weapons with marshmallows instead of hollow points. Tell you what, how about if the next time the police respond to a scene of a possible violent felony, what if they were only armed with hugs and rainbows? Would that make you feel better?

[flopo562]

I try to avoid these type of post but some of you guys..... Wow!
I was, key word was, a police officer for five years. Last Memorial Day at 3 am I was searching for a burglary suspect that was running from us. I exited my patrol car to investigate some clothing on the ground. I returned to my car and no more than 5 feet a away the suspect popped out of the dumpster shooting me 5 times. Yes I was wearing my vest but one round struck the flap of the vest, tumbled in on me striking my spinal cord and collapsing my right lung. All that happened in a matter of seconds. But short enough time that I can still see today the muzzle blast of his handgun. My life was taken from me that day.
So I say this. I have been a veteran in 2004-2006 in Baghdad and 5 years as an officer in north county St. Louis. I have fired and been fired upon, we will leave it at that. But I can say you only have seconds folks, seconds, to make a life or death decision. If I tell you to drop your weapon and you move in a manner that threatens me or my partner I'm not gonna take my precious seconds to wonder, "well this kid knows better, he won't do anything bad." Folks in my line of work you wonder you die. I have seen kids kill. Today's society for a lack of better term is, f'd up. So I will make sure my partner and I will go home.
As for the rookie not firing. Unless your put in a stressful situation you will never know how you will react. You can train and train but will not know until then. But we train so we can do the right thing under that stress. I have seen kids not fire their rifle even though their life was in danger. Some people react, some freeze up. That's it.
Even after all of that I carry a gun with me. You threaten or "pretend" to threaten me or my loved ones I will react. then everyone out there can play Monday quarterback and act like they know what should have been done if they were there.

[Envy]

Originally Posted by Spartan01

But you are right Envy, it is the fault of the police. If only they had loaded their weapons with marshmallows instead of hollow points. Tell you what, how about if the next time the police respond to a scene of a possible violent felony, what if they were only armed with hugs and rainbows? Would that make you feel better?

I NEVER ONCE said that this was the fault of the police. In fact...I said early on that had the boy not been carrying the pellet gun...none of this would have happened. So you know what you can do with those marshmallows...lol...because THAT would make me feel a whole lot better.

[Spartan01]

Originally Posted by flopo562

I try to avoid these type of post but some of you guys..... Wow!
I was, key word was, a police officer for five years. Last Memorial Day at 3 am I was searching for a burglary suspect that was running from us. I exited my patrol car to investigate some clothing on the ground. I returned to my car and no more than 5 feet a away the suspect popped out of the dumpster shooting me 5 times. Yes I was wearing my vest but one round struck the flap of the vest, tumbled in on me striking my spinal cord and collapsing my right lung. All that happened in a matter of seconds. But short enough time that I can still see today the muzzle blast of his handgun. My life was taken from me that day.
So I say this. I have been a veteran in 2004-2006 in Baghdad and 5 years as an officer in north county St. Louis. I have fired and been fired upon, we will leave it at that. But I can say you only have seconds folks, seconds, to make a life or death decision. If I tell you to drop your weapon and you move in a manner that threatens me or my partner I'm not gonna take my precious seconds to wonder, "well this kid knows better, he won't do anything bad." Folks in my line of work you wonder you die. I have seen kids kill. Today's society for a lack of better term is, f'd up. So I will make sure my partner and I will go home.
As for the rookie not firing. Unless your put in a stressful situation you will never know how you will react. You can train and train but will not know until then. But we train so we can do the right thing under that stress. I have seen kids not fire their rifle even though their life was in danger. Some people react, some freeze up. That's it.
Even after all of that I carry a gun with me. You threaten or "pretend" to threaten me or my loved ones I will react. then everyone out there can play Monday quarterback and act like they know what should have been done if they were there.

Amen!
See? You have been there and done that, you understand the REALITY of this world versus the IDEALISTIC NON-EXISTANT version many people pretend to live in.

[rray]

I noticed police opinions are the only opinions that matter here. You are all police suck ups.

-Robert

[Spartan01]

No Robert,
I am not a police suck up.
I was a police officer.
See the difference?
What I am trying to put out there is the fact that many civilians who have never faced the situations that officers typically find themselves in, and have no idea about the real world conditions of the situation, make silly commenst like "the police should have been able to tell it was a BB gun," or "They should have waited for backup."
Lots of people who all think that their judgement of the situation is more valid than everyone else' judgement. Most of these people have never been cops, so at the fundamental level their judgement is riddled with ignorance.

See, I have only the most rudimentary understanding (ie barely any at all,) of Quantum Physics, so it would be very arrogant, silly, and foolish of me to think that I could explain how the Hedron Colider works, or go toe-to-toe with Dr. Amit Goswami in a conversation about particle and quantum physics.
I am entitled to my opinion, even when it is wrong.

I have also said several times before, NONE OF HERE ON CAMARO5, INCLUDING ME, were there that day. Only 3 people know exactly what went down, and 1 of them is dead.
I have also stated that the media is notorious for misreporting, spin, and adding extra drama to boost sales, so we don't even know if the story is close to accurate.

People also make the broad leap that since I used to be a cop, that I am pro police. Personally I cannot stand being told what to do, and have quite a bit of contempt for most police. Even though I have a great deal of respect for every officer who gets up, straps on his or her vest and weapon and jumps into the fray, they still really tend to pi$$ me off.
Maybe next time do a little research before making generalizations about a group of people, that you personally know know nothing about.

Originally Posted by rray

I noticed police opinions are the only opinions that matter here. You are all police suck ups.

-Robert

[GroundPilot]

Originally Posted by Spartan01

No Robert,
People also make the broad leap that since I used to be a cop, that I am pro police. Personally I cannot stand being told what to do, and have quite a bit of contempt for most police.

Boy ain't this the truth! I, and most former LEO I know, seem to have the same view.

Still respect what those still wearing the badge do, but I am willing to call them out when need be.