shorties with twin turbos?

[yotaman96]

I had my stock manifolds coated by NitroPlate.

[Unreal]

Originally Posted by Jered@DKT

These fit our turbo kits, and from what I have seen in pictures these will not work with an AGP kit. It would not be worth using theses with AGP's small turbos.

Small turbos? Which out the 30+ combos you can get are small? I agree, no point on running a tubular header on the base 56mm because stock manifolds and those turbos have made 900+ but you can get the kit with any turbos you want. They have garret and precision in stock if someone wants 66/67s or whatever.

No need for manifolds like this on street builds <1000rwhp IMO. Stock manifolds work fine for that power level.

Small housings? Same thing, they probably have 600+ turbine housings sitting on a shelf. I was there today for lunch. Want 1.06 turbine housings, just ask for them. They cast their own housings and have a big range of A/Rs available.

[DKT]

Originally Posted by Unreal

Small turbos? I agree, no point on running them on the base 56mm because stock manifolds and those turbos have made 900+ but you can get the kit with any turbos you want. They have garret and precision in stock if someone wants 66/67s or whatever.

No need for manifolds like this on street builds <1000rwhp IMO. Stock manifolds work fine for that power level.

Small housings? Same thing, they probably have 600+ turbine housings sitting on a shelf. I was there today for lunch. Want 1.06 turbine housings, just ask for them. They cast their own housings and have a big range of A/Rs available.

I haven't looked at their kits since I owned a neon. I was just making a general post.
I agree, stock manifolds work for a lot of power when everything else is sized properly. Those tubular manifolds I posted were on a 1500+whp build, not your typical setup.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by kpwalls06

Alright, so reading all of this I have a question. My car currently has a 418ci LS3, all forged lower end, 102mm intake and TB, and 9.6:1 CR. I'm pretty set on the AGP TT setup in the coming months, and I'm looking to push 16-18# of boost on it. My question....with my larger displacement and lower CR, and the boost level I want to run, would shorties/turbo manifolds be worthwhile for me over the stock manifolds? I'm not looking for your power, SSE, but with higher displacement and boost, I don't want to choke the system either.

I ran my 67/66 turbos for a year at 12 lbs of boost, including some mile runs... No issues... about 800 or a bit more power... 427, 9.4/1 compression, and the custom exhaust manifolds.. We tuned for the mile, and cranked them up to 18 lbs...about 1100 rwhp... give or take... I blew up two turbos in one weekend... driver side, got a replacement overnighted, blew it up on the first pass.. That could have been a balance issue but there it is... We pulled the entire kit off the car and started from scratch with 76/75 twins, and mae over 1400 rwhp at 24 lbs of boost... relatively low IAT;s less than 150 degrees at the end of the run, where the smaller turbos could go from 93 ambient to 193 at the end of a quarter mile pass...

Jared hit the nail on the head when he mentioned properly sized... EVERYTHING... My original kit was ok for a 376 cubic inch engine... but not for a 427... Those turbos lasted a week, though that was mostly a vendor issue... Seond set lasted about 9 months, and we sent them in for a peak poke, and they gave us the option to upgrade to the 67/66's... with the new CEA wheel... We jumped on it... They ran great for a year at 12 lbs but as soon as we went to 18 we grenaded two of them... Hence, proper sizing... The smaller turbos on my motor spun up too fast and sheared the small main shaft...

Precision knew what we were doign and recommended the bigger mid frame turbos... They treated us very well and here I am... Making well over 1500 RWHP on boost alone... Now if I could just keep the damn head on... and we have a fix for that in the next little while...

6 Bolt, custom ERL build, large journal custom crank, offset X beam rods, custom pistons, All Pro Heads with Jezel valve train and a cam All Pro and my builder tuner spec for our purposes... I have the fuel capacity now for 2800 hp but we are not going that far... Looking for 30-32 lbs of boost, and we'll spray for whatever else we need...

I would recommend talking to everyone you can find that knows their stuff, Jered at DKT, the guys at AGP, the guys at IPS, and don't forget Hellion...

All of them make good kits to my knowledge... but you need to size the turbos to the intended motor and racing/driving style... Lots of guys are running 67/66's in the quarter and doing fine... but my short races are a mile in length...

Find a builder vendor you like and trust and talk to them and via them, the builders of leading turbos...

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Jered@DKT

These fit our turbo kits, and from what I have seen in pictures these will not work with an AGP kit. It would not be worth using theses with AGP's small turbos.

When you mention small turbos, do you mean the base turbos with the AGP kit... As I understand it, they can build their kits with most any size turbo that will fit in the alloted space under the car... typically a 67/66, though in my case we fitted 76/75's by notching the frame and boxing it in... Its tight... but works...

[DKT]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

When you mention small turbos, do you mean the base turbos with the AGP kit... As I understand it, they can build their kits with most any size turbo that will fit in the alloted space under the car... typically a 67/66, though in my case we fitted 76/75's by notching the frame and boxing it in... Its tight... but works...

I honestly have no idea. From the phone calls I have received I just made a general statement seeing that most complained about lack of power among other things, but I don't know who is spec'ing the turbos or if customers are just ordering from a drop down list.

We use 5862 all the way to 6766, possibly a 6870 and with the Gen 2 PTEs coming out, I am really getting excited for our kits.

I would be interested to see what you had to do to get your 7675s to fit. We have a forward kit I would probably switch to if we needed that big of turbos but that's awesome you got them to mount down low.

[SSE 4 2SS]

All, please keep comments positive and educational to those asking about information... Everyone has ideas and not all of them match... There are lots of ways to drill a hole. We will not tolerate vendor bashing in this thread... especially the unsubstantiated bashing of one vendor with no evidence to back it up, and then if legitimate info is produced, take it to the vendor review section... I've removed three posts from one member, and sent warnings out.... Keep it on topic and helpful....

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Jered@DKT

I honestly have no idea. From the phone calls I have received I just made a general statement seeing that most complained about lack of power among other things, but I don't know who is spec'ing the turbos or if customers are just ordering from a drop down list.

We use 5862 all the way to 6766, possibly a 6870 and with the Gen 2 PTEs coming out, I am really getting excited for our kits.

I would be interested to see what you had to do to get your 7675s to fit. We have a forward kit I would probably switch to if we needed that big of turbos but that's awesome you got them to mount down low.

Jered, I'll post up some pics when I get some more time... I'm working offshore and the internet connection via satellite is slow and sketchy right now... The weather is rough as a cob...

In a nut shell, we cut the boost outlet, and notched the frame then boxed it back in... The center section splits the bell housing... boost side in front of the bell housing flange and hot side behind it.

It's tight as hell with the pipe size and turbo size, but works like a charm and no rattles or rubbing...

Here are a couple of teasers...

[DKT]

Thank you for posting that!
That is a lot of turbo down there!

[stevieturbo]

Have to say, my car is completely different to you guys. But placement of my turbos is almost identical to yours SSE !

I'm making mine based around a S366 which should cover me for worst case scenario size wise, although using a pair of 364FMW's from BW which are just a fraction smaller.
But mine are mounted exactly the same location as yours, with compressor/turbine split by the bellhousing.

Very interesting about the shorties making such a huge difference though, even more so regarding spool. I'd have thought the complete opposite would have happened.
And you used 2" tubes for the shorties ?
I wonder how much difference that plays a part ?

Also surprised at the difference made by the larger downpipe/exhaust.

Ive tested a friends 4cyl car which is pushing 700+ and it has a 4" DP/ but 3" system and a well silenced one at that. Even at 35psi boost, it makes less than 2psi at the downpipe at full power.

All great info so far though.

[kpwalls06]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

I ran my 67/66 turbos for a year at 12 lbs of boost, including some mile runs... No issues... about 800 or a bit more power... 427, 9.4/1 compression, and the custom exhaust manifolds.. We tuned for the mile, and cranked them up to 18 lbs...about 1100 rwhp... give or take... I blew up two turbos in one weekend... driver side, got a replacement overnighted, blew it up on the first pass.. That could have been a balance issue but there it is... We pulled the entire kit off the car and started from scratch with 76/75 twins, and mae over 1400 rwhp at 24 lbs of boost... relatively low IAT;s less than 150 degrees at the end of the run, where the smaller turbos could go from 93 ambient to 193 at the end of a quarter mile pass...

Jared hit the nail on the head when he mentioned properly sized... EVERYTHING... My original kit was ok for a 376 cubic inch engine... but not for a 427... Those turbos lasted a week, though that was mostly a vendor issue... Seond set lasted about 9 months, and we sent them in for a peak poke, and they gave us the option to upgrade to the 67/66's... with the new CEA wheel... We jumped on it... They ran great for a year at 12 lbs but as soon as we went to 18 we grenaded two of them... Hence, proper sizing... The smaller turbos on my motor spun up too fast and sheared the small main shaft...

Precision knew what we were doign and recommended the bigger mid frame turbos... They treated us very well and here I am... Making well over 1500 RWHP on boost alone... Now if I could just keep the damn head on... and we have a fix for that in the next little while...

6 Bolt, custom ERL build, large journal custom crank, offset X beam rods, custom pistons, All Pro Heads with Jezel valve train and a cam All Pro and my builder tuner spec for our purposes... I have the fuel capacity now for 2800 hp but we are not going that far... Looking for 30-32 lbs of boost, and we'll spray for whatever else we need...

I would recommend talking to everyone you can find that knows their stuff, Jered at DKT, the guys at AGP, the guys at IPS, and don't forget Hellion...

All of them make good kits to my knowledge... but you need to size the turbos to the intended motor and racing/driving style... Lots of guys are running 67/66's in the quarter and doing fine... but my short races are a mile in length...

Find a builder vendor you like and trust and talk to them and via them, the builders of leading turbos...

Wow, that's almost a Greek Saga right there!! I've actually followed your build quite a bit, and it's been quite interesting to watch y'all figure things out over time. Thanks for all that info on your car too, it's very helpful.

Since we're on this topic...what A/R's were you running in the 67/66's, and now in your bigger set-up? Also, since I'm rocking a 9ci smaller motor and I'm not looking for your power levels, you think I could get away with the 6766's, and keeping the max boost around 15-16#'s? I'm building my car more for road-racing type stuff, and I definitely want to run the Texas Mile once it's force-fed; 1/4 times and hooking from a dig aren't really the focus for my girl. I'm looking for 1k+ rwhp at the top (once I get there I'll see if I want more), and done in such a way that I can still drive the car regularly.

I understand the need for properly sizing everything from the manifolds to the housings, and the turbos themselves, I just don't have too much experience with winning combinations on these LS motors, so I'm trying to pick the brains of all the knowledgeable people I can find about these types of builds. You may not have guessed it, but this is my first foray into these power levels!

[kpwalls06]

Sorry, forgot to say it's a manual, still running the TR6060. Is the 6766 just too small to flow enough air for the high power on a larger displacement motor? Would changing to a T4 or V-band housing help move that max level a little higher?

[Unreal]

Originally Posted by Jered@DKT

I honestly have no idea. From the phone calls I have received I just made a general statement seeing that most complained about lack of power among other things, but I don't know who is spec'ing the turbos or if customers are just ordering from a drop down list.

We use 5862 all the way to 6766, possibly a 6870 and with the Gen 2 PTEs coming out, I am really getting excited for our kits.

I would be interested to see what you had to do to get your 7675s to fit. We have a forward kit I would probably switch to if we needed that big of turbos but that's awesome you got them to mount down low.

Customers and shops mostly are picking the turbos. AGP has only sold a handful of kits direct, most go out through shops that pick what they want. All of the direct sales are as happy as can be, making great power. Seems a lot of people want big turbos in case the upgrade later even if they aren't matched perfectly to the setup. If someone called you and insisted on 66/67s on a stock motor to make 650rwhp, you can only tell them a few times it isn't the best combo but if that is what they want, you sell it to them. AGP knows how to spec a turbo. They have lots of fast cars and work with several NHRA teams providing turbos. They have a 3.8 v6 TT firebird here make 1500+hp, several 1200+hp supras, 1400+hp LS powered trucks. I would be interested to know who called to complain about lack of power because not many kits of shipped and besides one person I haven't heard any complaints (then again I don't work there, just a friend). That person had the shop spec them 1400rwhp turbos, then put them on a stock motor ZL1 and wasn't happy with the lag compared to the blower. I don't think any turbo setup capable of 1000+rwhp would have come on quicker than the factory TVS1900.

As for the AGP kit struggling to make 1000rwhp, that isn't the case. The one shop that did it passed 1000+ with ease and had to back it down because the factory auto will only take so much. If the member in this thread was referring to Blake's car only make 935rwhp on 15psi, they are working on the bugs but they aren't with the turbo kit. Car made 200+ft/lbs more most of the power band over the blower, and on gate pressure made 900+rwhp. The initial dyno pulls had melted plug wires and boost controller needed tweaking. That isn't the turbo kit struggling, it is just the shop working out the build on the first kit they have done. That car should make 1000+ easy enough before it gets returned. Then again it is just a pretty basic stock block upgraded pistons/rods combo with decent heads. Turbo kit will support more than the block can, so the shop can't even push it that hard. Still 4 bolt heads and stock block. No one has put an AGP kit on a big built motor. If someone with a built 400+ 6 bolt setup wanted 1200+hp send it out. Ben@AGP will make you a killer deal on everything. Until then everyone seems to max out their motor/tranny and no one has found the limit of the kit.

AGP is setup with ARH to provide shortie headers for those who want them. If anyone has questions on the AGP kits, turbos available, options, etc I would call them and talk. I keep bugging them to update the website because there is a lot more available, and many parts that aren't listed that come with the kit that I haven't seen any other kit provide. Features like a built in timer that runs the oil pump for a set time after car is off to ensure all the oil is evacuated out of the pumps so it doesn't smoke on start up. Ceramic coating on all hot parts.

Back to topic, AGP has done several truck kits with factory manifolds and 2"-2.25" crossover that are making 1300+hp. No signs of restriction and the truck manifolds don't look like they flow nearly as well as the camaro ones.

[IPSjeff]

Originally Posted by ABMLS3

after making polls and saying i didnt know which super charger i wanted i decided that i want twin turbos. (andymon is convincing me to get the turbos) only down part is i have to get rid of my LT headers im deffinetly going to miss them but ill like the twin turbos more for sure. but i was wondering if shorty headers would work with turbos, also what do you guys think about the sound of shorties? ive never heard them in person.

To answer your question, if you REALLY want to go with shorty's then go with the American Racing set. The only reason to do so IMO (And it is a very good one once power levels really start to increase) is to utilize 6-bolt heads. Preventing head-lift with a good set of 6-bolt heads makes the stock manifolds obsolete and require shorty's.

Shorty's on an other-wise stock or bolt on TT car will not change the over-all sound much at all. You would be FAR better off doing an electronic cut-out or muffler delete if the goal is scaring the neighbors with crazy turbo whirling sounds

Stock cast manifolds are durable as hell, can make 2000+ HP with enough turbo (IE: not a restriction for 99.99999% of users) and are free since they are already on the car.
Jeff